Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: By Holly Swenson before I even begin to introduce our guest, I want to remind all of you, whether you're watching us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, or YouTube, you can use the comment section to type in your questions, and we'll get to as many of them as we can. A registered nurse, wellness blogger, and mother of four boys, Holly Swenson is the author of Stop, Drop, Grow and Glow, a book focused on helping parents grow into their best selves and finding the courage to avoid over parenting and instead offering their children the chance to develop resilience and self confidence. She joins us today to talk about her book and the particular challenges of raising boys in a society where masculinity is all too often pathologized. So, Holly, thank you for joining us.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: Hi, Jag. Thank you for having me on the show. I appreciate it.
[00:00:55] Speaker A: So your book is about your experience as a parent and the lessons you want to share with other parents. But let's start with your experience as a child and the circumstances that forced you at age seven to step into a mothering role. You write about it in the book, and it was very affecting.
[00:01:18] Speaker B: Yes. You know, at age seven, I went to live with my father as my mother wasn't able to care for us as a normal mother would. She had some personal struggles she was working through that kept her from being a strong figure in my life. And my father at the time struggled with alcohol and a smoking addiction.
And the reality is my father had barely been able to raise himself, yet he was being asked to step into the full time caregiver role with little preparation and with habits of that were not ideal for being a primary caregiver.
And at the time, a father caring for two young daughters was not customary and a bit of an oddity. But we made it work, and we did have some grand adventures along the way.
I actually learned how to drive a boat and a car at age seven, when we would go to the bars with my father and he would have too much to drink, it would be my responsibility to help navigate us home. And at the time, it was normal for me, and I usually didn't mind because it meant my sister and I got to sit at the bar, you know, and have pizza and Shirley Temples, which is honestly still a fond memory for me. And I think that memories are what we make of them. And I've worked hard in my life to not let my past define my future or outlook on life. And this has served me incredibly well, you know, and I also, when I speak about this you know, this personal part of my history, I always like to clarify that my father then and now, you know, has always had a heart of gold. You know, he was working through some personal choices and habits when he took, you know, took us on. And I'm happy to share that, you know, he was able to give up both addictions successfully within about two years after stepping into the full time father role, you know, and ultimately, I will always be grateful that he did step up to the plate when my mother couldn't. Even if it wasn't, you know, that storybook family image, it was the journey I was meant to take. And ultimately, you know, there's no changing it or rewriting history. So everything I experienced as a child helped shape me into who I am today. And I'm proud of the woman I've become, the mother I am and the work I am doing in the world.
[00:03:32] Speaker A: And it sounds that even as he was struggling with his addiction, that he was still present for you and that you knew that he loved you.
[00:03:42] Speaker B: Yes. Yes.
[00:03:44] Speaker A: So you are the mother of four boys aged nine through 13.
How has your parenting approach changed from when you were bringing home that first newborn as a young mother to now being a more seasoned parent of four?
[00:04:05] Speaker B: Yes. So I will share that my approach has definitely shifted when I look back at when my children were little to where I am today.
Ultimately, I've learned to cultivate a deeper understanding of myself along the way. And I always like to say that I'm a perpetual student of life. And so for me, my children have been some of my biggest teachers and gurus when it comes to self growth and self discovery. I think they've really helped me grow in so many ways that I would not have had I not stepped into motherhood.
But I think getting to know myself, to care for myself in a more intentional way, has changed me, really on a cellular level. You know, I'm more grounded, I'm less reactionary. I've become more joyful and more grateful in my everyday, especially when it comes to parenting. And I think I want to add that, you know, for me, I didn't truly learn mindfulness until I was about seven years into my mothering journey.
And I, you know, I wrote my book, and I'm doing this work right now because I want to change that trajectory for my peers. And I think there is a better, kinder, more mindful way to step into parenting. You know, whether you're, you know, soon to be parent, you're already parenting or, or even if you're looking back on, you know, you know, your children from a different vantage point, you know, I think if parents can start utilizing healthier tools, self care reflection, you know, leaning on response versus reaction, and, you know, having a curiosity mindset as they parent, it can help truly revolutionize their journey, you know, as a mother or father and as well as for their children.
[00:05:46] Speaker A: We have a nice comment here from my modern Galt, who's a regular, says, interesting blog, Holly, thanks for doing the interview. So you're already gaining fans.
So we had at our gala last week Abigail Schreier. She, of course, is the author of irreversible damage, the transgender craze sweeping our daughters, and bad therapy, why kids aren't growing up. And in her books, she's very critical of this whole trend in gentle parenting. She said that if kids don't have boundaries, they will seek them out. And she actually blames some of this sort of gentle parenting for the rise in young people seeking out these authoritarian left wing causes. What do you make of that argument?
[00:06:39] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think what I would say is that I'm a fan of gentle parenting, and I'm a huge fan of boundary setting. I don't think there has to be separation.
I believe you can and should utilize both.
I know I do. In my home.
I think that I firmly believe in connection, empathy, and positive reinforcement wholeheartedly.
And why I do is because I think they lead to more resiliency and stronger relationships with your children and your loved ones.
But with that being said, I think that boundaries are incredibly important to have in life and to set with your children.
Boundary setting should start in the home, as home is the foundational space for learning life skills and having clarity on behavior that is appreciated and behavior that's not, you know, go ahead.
[00:07:34] Speaker A: Yeah. So in terms of making sure that there are boundaries, you also talk about a different approach in your book, which is natural consequences to help your kids learn to self correct as opposed to trying to always correct them yourselves. Could you elaborate on that and maybe give some examples?
[00:07:53] Speaker B: Sure. Yeah. So natural consequences are instances that happen without adult interference. You know, adults are usually kind of driving the show, and, you know, these types of consequences can be powerful and also helpful to children to help them link cause and effect. So, examples of natural consequences. So maybe your child forgets their lunch, they might go hungry, they forget their coat, they might be cold at recess, or if they forget their instrument at home, they might miss something and ban that day. So I talk about this because I think it's important that you don't always want to come to the rescue of your child in every instance, because I think when you let these natural consequences take shape, it actually can help them link cause and effect and help teach them to be more organized in the future. And I think if you're constantly coming to your child's rescue, this doesn't always serve them in the way you hope it might. And I think it can also potentially foster co dependence in action and decrease ownership of who they are as human beings. So I think that there are times it's important to step in and offer support, and that is absolutely appropriate and that's really for you to gauge as the parent. But there are many opportunities where your child can learn from mistakes or oversights and really grow stronger in the process.
[00:09:19] Speaker A: So we have a question here from Alan Turner. He asks, any insights as a mother raising four boys versus raising poor girls? Now you only have experience with the boys, but obviously you've done a lot of research for the book and talked to a lot of parents and interviewed them. But thoughts on what, you know, the special needs of boys as children as opposed to girls?
[00:09:48] Speaker B: Well, I think, as you mentioned, you know, for me, I grew up with a sister and then now I'm at a point in life where I'm raising four boys. So it's definitely, I will just say it's a very different experience. You know, I think boys are more physical. They like to, you know, they might be louder at times. They want to kind of get in there and they like hands on activities. So I think setting your, your boys up for, you know, I'll speak to boys because that's what I know. I haven't done as much research on, on girls necessarily, but just speaking from being a mother of boys, I think providing opportunities where they can get that energy out and be successful. I think a lot of kids aren't getting enough movement in their everyday. I think, you know, screens have, have really replaced some, you know, connection, you know, connection and physical activity. So I think providing framework for them to enjoy their boyhood and just to, I think, really rally behind, rally behind our boys because I think sometimes they, I don't want to say they get worse treatment, but I think especially when you look at school, I think sometimes girls have an easier route because I feel like schools may be geared more towards girls where they can sit and focus longer. And I think boys are just more hands on. And that's not a negative thing. I think that's a reality. And so I think we should support and encourage who they are in terms of that, I hope that's helpful.
[00:11:16] Speaker A: Yes. Okay. Question from Candice Morena. Also another regular asking thoughts about on the mindset of some older parents that stress boundaries so much that kids need to leave the house at 18, pushing them out of the nest and hoping they'll fly.
[00:11:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, you know, I think, again, I think that is a family decision. Every family handles this differently. You know, I think boundaries worth considering, you know, you know, whether it's them moving out at 18 or, you know, physical boundaries, emotional boundaries, time, you know, financial, there's so many different ways you can apply boundaries. And I think, I don't know that it's right or wrong. I think, you know, that's, again, for you to gauge as a family. I think it's healthy, though, to set the expectation that they can set out and launch at 18.
I was looking forward to it when I was 18. I was ready to leave. I wanted to set out and embark on my own journey. And I think it's healthy. I think getting them prepared to be successful and victorious in their life is something to strive for. So if you're asking if I think they should leave at 18, I think it should definitely be a goal, because I think they ultimately will actually be happier if they are set up to take the reins in their own life.
[00:12:30] Speaker A: So one of the key themes from Ayn Rand's philosophy is the importance of independent thinking and making your own judgments about your values and your behavior, rather than constantly comparing yourself to others or seeking validation in the opinions of others. In your book, you write that, quote, the success of others doesn't equate to your failure. And you warn of the ways in which society encourages us to compare ourselves to others and relatively evaluate whether or not we're on track. What are some examples of that as a parent? As a parent, and how do we guard against it?
[00:13:09] Speaker B: Yeah. So, for me, you know, what comes to mind is the famous expression of keeping up with the Joneses, which is, you know, where, you know, you're using your neighbor as a benchmark for social class, and if you fail to keep up, you become less than or inferior in some way, you know? And so I think proving and feeling like you have to have a nice car, a nice house, financial status, the same baby stroller as the mom next door, you know, that sort of thing can be detrimental. You know, I think getting on a hamster wheel that never stops can become unhealthy. And I think if you don't take the steering wheel in your own life, it can really not serve you. So for me, I personally don't, I don't care for comparison. I think that you need to spend time with yourself and ultimately get under your own hood on what your best life looks like and feels like and not let others influence you to a level of exhaustion and unhappiness.
[00:14:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, again, Ayn Rand does write a lot about this. And I think at one point, she was even going to title the fountainhead secondhand lives, and it came to her with an experience. She was talking to someone, I think, that she knew professionally, and the woman said, you know, if you had one car, you know, and your neighbor had two cars, then. Then, you know, would it affect you? And the person said, no, I need to then have three cars. And in other words, there was just this constant comparison and judging, you know, and I think the fact that we're all on social media, we don't post social media. That the tantrum, right, that your kid is having, you just obviously post the highlights.
Okay. On Instagram, Izzy 1913 asks, what do you say to people who say they, quote, put their life on hold to raise kids? I think that one's a softball for you, Holly.
[00:15:17] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, I would say, yes, you did. And I think that that was a choice that you chose to make. And so I think sometimes as a parent, you know, I think sometimes you look at it as a burden, and I think when you choose to operate from that position, your children feel that.
And so I think it's important when you choose to have children, that you show up for it in a way that is as healthy and as positive as possible, because it was, again, the choice you made. And so I think that helping your kids feel like they are loved, appreciated, worthy, it's really important. And so I think that, you know, I hope, hopefully, that's kind of answering your question, but I think that's kind of what's coming up for me.
[00:16:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
So let's see.
Jazz Blue says, it seems like children are staying home more nowadays, and he was curious whether or not it's a general generational mindset or something else. I would say it is a generational mindset, and I would recommend that you take a look at the interview that I did with Jean Twenge. She's kind of the leading expert on generations. And then also the interview that I did with Greg Lukianoff. And he links this kind of over parenting, helicopter parenting, which robs young people of the opportunity to make mistakes, to get those natural boundaries to, you know, get a few bumps and bruises and learn that they can work through it, and that this has led to a generation that is much more fearful and delaying a lot of things that previous generations did. So delaying their first kiss, delaying drinking. And some of this is good, but, like, hugely delaying even wanting to get their learner's permit and drive, and that there's a real fear of becoming an adult because they hadn't been taking those incremental steps along the way to learn some of those skills.
Speaking of Greg Lukianoff. So Abigail Schreier, Greg Lukianoff, Jonathan Haidt. Others have warned about the very serious dangers to teen mental health posed by smartphones and social media. What approach do you recommend when it comes to regulating kids social media use?
[00:17:55] Speaker B: Sure. Yeah. So smartphones and social media can definitely pose serious dangers to teens mental health. You know, this is a hot topic and really a prevalent issue, an area that needs more work. In our country, statistically, 95% of youth ages 13 to 17 use social media. And of that percentage, a third report using social media almost constantly. And that comes from Pew Research Center, a study done in 2022. And so I think as a parent, it's helpful to have a pulse on the amount of time your child is spending on their screens, as well as the content they're engaging in. And also look at how social media or their screen use are having a positive or negative impact on their activities of daily living. And so what I mean by that is, how is it impacting their sleep? How is it impacting their movement?
Are they engaged with others? And I think you need to tap into your kids world and help them learn to have more self awareness as well as healthy boundaries. When it comes to social media and screen time, I recommend, first and foremost, being a solid role model. Your kids are watching you, and if your nose is constantly buried in your phone, whether it's, you know, for work or social media, they are soaking that up and internalizing it. So that becomes their norm. So you want to work to, you know, just use care and set a stage that has healthy modeling, and then I think you go ahead.
[00:19:23] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I was just agreeing with you. I think that the importance of being a role model, being conscious of how you are showing up. Like, if you are a parent that is constantly on Instagram, constantly checking your phone, and then you're trying to set boundaries with kids in terms of their social media use, it's a little bit of mixed, mixed messaging, and I was reminded of that last week when we had our big student conference, Galts Gulch 2.0 in Washington, DC. And by and large, I was pleased to see that the vast majority of our students were not online, but there were a few that they're sitting here. It's a wonderful opportunity. There's a lecture, there's a panel or whatever, and they're on their phone, so they're not really there. And so I mentioned it to our staff how we're going to handle it next year, and somebody pointed out to me that they saw far more of our donors in the audience on their phones. So it's like if the adults are on their phones constantly, I mean, the kids then get a signal, then that it's kind of okay.
[00:20:38] Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think the other thing, too is I think you want to aim to have open communication with your teen. So, you know, like, what are they, you know, what? And who are they connecting with online? I think that's also really important. And I think I just want to add a few other points here that, you know, it's, I think you should work to have screen free time in the home, especially meal times or in terms of bedtime, not letting your teens or children take their phones to bed or in the bedroom. I think it's really important for them to have that time to sleep and rest and regenerate. And I think when screens are in the bedroom, they are not going to be getting adequate sleep.
[00:21:19] Speaker A: So you actually, your policy then is like, you've had dinner, you know, going to do an activity, you're going to work on your homework, but do they leave them in the kitchen? How do you, how do you manage that?
[00:21:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Just like phones are like, off during, during, you know, you can put them on the kitchen counter, put them, you know, put them in your entryway, put them wherever it makes sense to you in your home. But I think just to not have, you know, three different people staring at a screen, you know, when you're, you know, I think mealtime is valuable. It's a time to process, the time to unpack your day. And I think we're missing, you know, just making eye contact with each other. Eye contact and really checking in and bringing that human to human connection, you know? And again, role modeling for your kids, you have to teach them these things. If everyone's looking at a screen and especially when they're children and their brains are developing, I mean, that's what they learn is normal. And I think it's, I think it's unfortunate that, that so many children are interacting with screens instead of learning how to communicate and take care of one another.
[00:22:23] Speaker A: Another great question here from my modern are there some specific lines between giving kids the space they need to develop self reliance versus being a helicopter parent? So this helicopter parenting has become so prevalent. What advice would you give to parents who are having a hard time resisting the impulse to, you know, shuttle their kids everywhere, supervise them all the time, that are afraid about letting them go and walk to school by themselves or go to the mall by themselves?
[00:23:02] Speaker B: Sure. You know, I think helicopter parenting has become normalized, and I think this likely has led to children, you know, maybe not developing as many life skills or as much autonomies as previous generations.
I think it is healthy for them to, you know, I think there are moments where, you know, it can be helpful to hover and moments where you need to back off and let them step into some of their own ownership in life. You know, it needs to be, you know, safe, of course. But I think as the kids, as kids get older, you know what your kids are capable of and what they're not. And so, you know, if it is walking to school, if it's three blocks and they're old enough and you feel comfortable, you should maybe give them the opportunity to step into that because it can help them grow in ways that they won't be able to if they're always reliant on somebody being there around the clock. So I think, you know, it's, it's important to, to be present but not smothering.
[00:23:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, another previous guest on this show was Lenore Scanazzi, author of free range parenting and part of this whole let's grow movement. Because there are now a lot of laws on the books, right, that you can't leave your kid in the car for five minutes while you're running in to pick up your dry cleaning or what have you. And she kind of got her claim to fame as America's worst mom when I think she let her ten year old take, take the subway all the way, like, from Manhattan to Brooklyn.
But it was really, you know, because, as you say, the helicopter parenting has become normalized. And that kind of activity that would have been certainly normal, like when I was growing up, has now become so rare that it almost seems irresponsible. And that, again, is going back to your point about not comparing yourself to others or not being overly concerned with how other parents are judging you, because a lot of times, it's not just that the parents themselves want to over parent or want to be a helicopter parent, but that they are facing censure from their peers if they're not taking that approach.
[00:25:24] Speaker B: Sure. No, and I think, too. I think, yeah, it's the other issue with over parenting, I think, is children don't learn to trust their own instincts, you know? And I think what happens is then they're constantly looking to the outside world for their validation of whether, you know, they're good or bad or capable. And I think they then don't. They're not as adept at honing their own inner knowing. And to me, that is not always ideal. So, you know, whether it's your kid riding the subway, you know, again, that's your. Your decision making as the parent, you know, I can't say that I necessarily encourage it, but I also think there are moments where you can give your kids freedom to step into more maturity or making decisions on their own that could potentially really benefit them in their life.
As long as you feel like they are capable of that, that's on you. But, yeah, I think that there is room for letting go a little more than we are allowed to.
[00:26:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think because it's not just about giving them the opportunity to do something like go on the subway by themselves and do it successfully, but it's the opportunity to learn that they are capable of overcoming mistakes, that they are capable of bouncing back. So, yes, it's good if they make it home and they don't get lost, but it could also be good if they get lost and they get a little scared, but they ask for directions or figure it out and they correct their mistake, because, you know, we're all going to make a lot of mistakes in life and having that confidence that, you know, when I don't know what to do or when things go wrong, that I can overcome it. That is something that I think, you know, parents might want to consider not depriving their children of.
So the characters in Ayn Rand's fiction are notable for their sense of agency, what psychologists would call an internal locus of control. Howard Roark pursuing his creative vision, or the protagonist of anthem declaring, I am. I think I will. Rather than embracing this internal locus of control, many in Gen Z lean towards an external locus of control, seeing a themselves as being passively buffeted about by forces beyond their control. How can parents better encourage their children to see themselves as independent and self determined?
[00:28:04] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I think I would have to say in terms of parents encouraging their children to see themselves as independent and self determined, it's a good idea to help your child build competence and a key way to accomplish this is by providing opportunities for them to make their own decisions, which kind of, you know, piggybacks on what we were just talking about. You know, this gives them some sense of control over their own life and who they are independent of them being your child, you know, that's. That's important. And they need to learn what that feels like. You know, your child comes from you, but they ultimately have their own sense of direction, and that should be championed as much as possible.
And I think that, you know, giving them time in their day that isn't adult driven is also beneficial. You know, maybe it's at the park or kids just being able to hang out with other kids.
It'll allow them to learn to shine and succeed on their own terms. And so I think it's important that they have those moments in their life where they are driving their own bus. And then I think. And then finally, I just want to add, you know, I think you also want to avoid over correction of tasks. Right. Or duties. So your kids are going to spill milk. They will make mistakes, lots of them, for years. You want to give them some room to breathe and self correct.
[00:29:25] Speaker A: Okay. Another question on Instagram. Rastaman asks, what impact is there on children born to parents who are not married and don't marry? So. Yeah. Thoughts on being raised by parents who are married versus parents who are nothing?
[00:29:46] Speaker B: I think you can have great parents who are not married, and you can have great parents who are married. So I think it's just like with anything, it's kind of a roll of the dice of, you know, who you get as parents. And I think, you know, being married, you have more opportunities in terms of additional support at home and additional role modeling. But I think there are a lot of really fabulous single parents or people who aren't married who. Who do a really wonderful job raising their kids, that they are present, that they are giving their kids everything they need. And so I think, you know, you can have great parents. You can. You can not have great parents. And that can happen whether you're married, not married, single, divorced. I mean, all of those things, it's. It just depends on. On. On who your parents are and what they're willing to give and.
And do for you as your child. You know, if you're their child.
[00:30:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess I would, you know, at least from the data and the research that I've seen play a bit of a devil's advocate on that, that it does seem that, for example, when the government started to essentially subsidize out of wedlock births in first, you know, the african american community and then in other communities, the broader population, that that did seem to coincide with a lot of pathologies and problematic behaviors. And that in terms of boundaries in particular, maybe there is something to be said for having, if not a male in the home, then at least a very male, strong male role model or, you know, somehow who can help to provide that example for young boys in particular.
[00:31:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that that's. I think that, yeah, there's, there's truth there, too. And I think if you are, you know, say you're a single mother and you, you know, you're trying to figure out on your own, I think having a male role model is, is invaluable. If you can find somebody that can fill that, that void, you know, and provide things that you just like as a mother that you can't provide, that you don't understand because you're a woman, you know? And so I think I like that you bring that perspective, and I think it's important because I do think men and women bring different things to the table, and I think both influences can be positive for kids and necessary. So I definitely hear what you're saying.
[00:32:22] Speaker A: Lockstock and barrel asks whether you, Holly, saw the 2019 Super bowl ad for Gillette that was extremely critical of men. So kind of so called toxic masculinity.
And, you know, regardless, if you haven't, then I think we've all seen examples of how, you know, we've gone from sort of entertainment content and programming and where men were seen as responsible and I providers and competent and having wisdom to now where, you know, in programs, they always seem to be, you know, the butt of jokes, even if it's like an ad for cable service. It's always, you know, the dad who just is the clueless one and it's the, you know, neighbor or it's the wife who is kind of smirkingly having to correct this dolt of a father. So I wonder if you have any comment on that and whether or not that is something difficult that you have with dealing with that messaging from boys, whether it shows up for you. Of course, you're in Montana, which probably has a little bit of a different culture than California, but, yeah, I wonder if you have any thoughts on that.
[00:33:45] Speaker B: Well, I think what I'd say is I haven't seen the commercial, but I do understand what you're speaking to.
I think we should be careful as, you know, as a country, that we are not putting men down.
If you have other groups of people rising. I think to me, the real sign of success is when we all rise together. That's my personal bias. And I think I'm for people having success in their life, but not at the expense of others. And I think we need to be careful that we aren't putting our men down. And for me, being the mother of four boys, I want to champion for them that they are worthy, that they are smart, that they, they are valued. And I think we need to be careful of the messaging that we are putting out there to everybody, that men are less than, because that is not accurate. And men have just as much right to be at the table as anyone else. That's how I feel about it.
[00:34:41] Speaker A: Have you seen some of that in your own sons schools? Or how has the educational climate been for your boys? Because many of our donors, who are parents and who are grandparents, are very concerned with some of the messaging that they're finding in school, where everything is being kind of pathologized and that kids are not being taught to be proud of being an american or proud of all the positive aspects of american history. And also just a lot of what some parents feel is inappropriate sexual content. Discussion, obsession with gender. Obsession with gender orientation. Is that something that has come up for you or any, any comments on that?
[00:35:39] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think, you know, it's, the school landscape is definitely a changing one. Right. And so trying to keep up with, with all these changes that I feel like are happening fairly rapidly, you know, I think we need to, I think work with care, and I think it's important to have knowledge of what's happening in your children's school because it is important to know what they're learning and how that might be impacting them as they grow.
I think that, you know, in terms of pathologizing boys, I think, you know, where I see that show up, not necessarily at my school, but just in general, it seems like, you know, kind of like what I talked about earlier, you know, boys are more active. They, they don't like sitting still for 8 hours a day. And I think, unfortunately, they can be quick to be prescribed medication to help them kind of dull their senses. And I think that is a mistake. I think we need to be encouraging more movement in the school system. I think we need to be celebrating, you know, people for who they are, and that includes boys. And I think that.
What else. What part of that question am I missing? Jack?
[00:36:46] Speaker A: No, I think you're getting it. But one of the thing was also just a lot of the talk about gender orientation and linked to that. You know, one of the things that Abigail Schreier had talked about was the ubiquity of porn and how children are getting exposed to porn at younger and younger ages. And she was taking a look at that from the fact that young girls see this and that the porn is often of women being debased or humiliated or even hurt physically, and that that is part of the equation of some young women, you know, or twelve year old girls saying, oh, my God, if that's what, you know, growing up being a woman is about, I don't want any part of that. I think I'd rather be the boy. So, yeah, just any, any comment on the kind of ubiquity of porn and how you recommend that parents talk to their kids about it?
[00:37:50] Speaker B: Well, I think in terms of that, I think that. I think it's important to talk to your children about porn not being real. It's not real life. And so I think having conversation with them, because a lot of children, unfortunately, with screens, are, you know, engaging with that. They're seeing things from a young age, way younger than they should be. And it's setting an unrealistic example of what sex is and what it means and how men and women or whoever engage in sex. And I think that. So I think that needs to come from mom and dad or whoever is the caregiver to have dialogue with them that if they see that or when they see that, that is not, that is not the true marker of what it means to be intimate.
And I think, again, when going back to phone use and screen time, keeping a pulse on what your kids are watching as best as you can, you know, will help you have, I think, a firmer grip on that, that piece.
[00:38:53] Speaker A: Great. Well, I have a question for you about, again, I know I'm bringing in a lot of other, other guests that we've had on the show, but, you know, in just researching this and working on questions, I realize how many, how much we actually have focused on parenting by having different, different authors and books on parenting or, you know, people that are leading movements on parenting. And one of those was Esther Wojcicki. She was previous guest. She raised three girls who grew up to become the CEO of YouTube, the co founder and CEO of 23 andMe, and a professor at UCSF. And Esther shared some of her parenting advice in how to raise successful people like you. Esther was forced to take on responsibilities at an early age. And when it came to parenting, she instilled independence in her children at a very, very early age, giving them jobs and delegating decisions. What do you think of that strategy?
[00:39:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I love the strategy. I think it allows your child to play an important role in the home and in life. It also gives them a skill set that they will carry with them always. So it doesn't mean you won't get pushback from your kids for having them engage with different tasks, but having them contribute and care for themselves and their space, I think, is incredibly important and invaluable. So even things like doing the laundry, putting toys away, raking the leaves, these are all things that kids can do when age appropriate to help around the house and learn what it means to take ownership, you know, and expected duties, like, what that means to them. So I am a fan of this idea and strategy, without a doubt. And also, I think I just want to throw in because these are things my kids have done, but, you know, things like doing a lemonade stand or mowing lawns are a great way for children and teens to decision make on their own and also create work for themselves that's outside of the home that will benefit them as well as the community.
[00:41:08] Speaker A: So what are some examples of the work outside of the home that your sons have been doing?
[00:41:14] Speaker B: Well, so that's what I mean. So, like, doing a lemonade stand or, like, I have one son that this. This summer that he just took the initiative where he. He created his own banner. He went door to door, and he generated business. And so he's had clients this summer. He's had lawns to mow, and he's been communicating with them, being accountable. And then my younger son has really been into doing lemonade stands. And so they earn some pocket change, and they learn how to budget and make sales and converse with other people. And it's something that I definitely support. And I think it's healthy for that to start at an age that they feel excited to start stepping out and taking on, you know, a bigger role beyond just being in the house.
[00:42:02] Speaker A: Yeah, I think if more kids had lemonade stands or, you know, put out a shingle or helping with, you know, computer tech support and tech support would be great.
[00:42:14] Speaker B: I thought tech support these days.
[00:42:20] Speaker A: All right, Carl Tanner on Instagram asks, which is kind of related to work outside the home, do you think then an allowance is detrimental if they aren't working for money?
[00:42:33] Speaker B: So I will say again, I'll pull from my perspective, I do have expectations that our kids help in the home, and it's not always paid. So things like making your bed or helping with the dishes, taking the garbage out, stuff like that.
We don't necessarily give a weekly allowance. And so I don't think that it's.
I don't think it's detrimental. I think sometimes it's helpful for kids to pitch in just because they are a part of your home community. Right. They need to kind of pull their own weight. But then there are instances, too, where it's like, hey, if they are going above and beyond or there's a chore or something that I really need help with or my husband needs help with, and we do pay for that service that they provide that they're willing to step into and go above and beyond to, to, you know, take time out of their day to give back and to, to work for it.
[00:43:21] Speaker A: So, yeah, so that they have a list of responsibilities that they are just, they know that is part of the deal, making their beds, taking out the trash, doing laundry, that kind of thing. But then if there's like, oh, we're gonna paint the house, right?
[00:43:41] Speaker B: Or like, we are like, weeding the garden or something, that's a little more like, you know, involved, you know, then, you know, but they definitely, you know, they still do get some pocket change for things, but it's not, I don't want to set the stage that they need to get paid for every little thing they do in our house, because I think that. I think that that can sometimes get tricky, but, but people vary on their ideas of that. Some people think that it is really good to have a, you know, weekly allowance. You do these, this and this, and then you get paid. I think that I like to find a balance there, and I think I want them to give back and not always expect something in return. But that's me. So that's a, that's a personal decision that we've made.
[00:44:19] Speaker A: Alan Turner asks, should parents push their kids to go into certain professions, careers, or should it be more collaborative? I think that's a good question. A lot of times when there's a family business and, you know, entrepreneur, owner, manager has built this thing and would like to have it be sustainable and pass it along to his children to run. So what are your thoughts on that? Totally hands on or so.
[00:44:50] Speaker B: I love this question. I'm always in favor of collaboration. That's where I come from. Because I think as much as you want something, your child might not always want the same thing, even if it's something like a family business. I think that you.
I think sometimes we can impose our will as adults or as parents on our kids, and it doesn't always serve them. And I think it sometimes can lead to resentment or, you know, them stepping into something that they really don't want to step into. But in the, in the flipper, you know, on the flip side, I think that, you know, if it's a family business, you might have kids that are really fired up and excited to continue that legacy. And so if you have that, then I think having kind conversation to help keep that going for your family business can be really beneficial and also really awesome to keep it going. So I think I'm always a fan of collaboration and also teaching your kids to activate their own unique gifts without it being forced.
[00:45:45] Speaker A: So gratitude is a big theme of ours here at the Atlas Society. Gratitude as a rationale inoculant to the vices of resentment, envy and victimhood. What are some practical ways parents can help instill a sense of gratitude in their kids?
[00:46:04] Speaker B: Yes. So gratitude is one of my favorite words and favorite practices. So I really love this question.
Gratitude should be taught from day one.
The word thank you is powerful and should be used often. You know, I think this expression allows others to know you, appreciate their efforts and see what they're doing and role modeling in the form of communicating all you have to be grateful for in your life on a daily, weekly and or monthly basis can be beneficial, you know, so maybe you write this down, you put a list on your fridge, share at your dinner table all that you are grateful for, tell the people in your family you are grateful for their presence in your life. I think that's really so important to tell them, you know, you appreciate them, you love them, you're grateful for them. And I think you also want to be consistent in this practice, you know, and tend to it, I believe, daily, but as often as you can remember. And then I think you also want to give back when you can and let gratitude be your guide and navigation tool.
I think that it's a compass that won't steer you in the wrong direction.
[00:47:13] Speaker A: Right? So when you say give back, and I, I can't stand that term, just FYI.
Because, you know, I see so many people that have contributed so much, who have started businesses, who have come up with great ideas for goods and services and goods and services. A lot of people really wanted and bought a lot of, and those people have achieved great fortunes. And then, you know, they go and they get their awards and their honorees and they're always saying, well, I want to give back. And my thought is, oh, my God, you know, you've given so much. What have you taken away? You've actually created more than you've consumed.
But I hear you in terms of, I think, you know, being philanthropic. Right. We talked about being role models, and as a parent, if you can show your kid that, hey, you know what? This is something that we do because we. These are our values, and we would like to see, you know, whatever it is, whether it's people getting fed in this soup kitchen or if it's people getting more graphic novels and more kids going to a summer conference at the Outland Society, I think being able to incorporate philanthropy and volunteering seems very much in line with what you're recommending.
[00:48:40] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think giving back can take many forms. You know? So, like, for me, as an author, I really wrote my book as a way to be of service to others, and so it can, again, I think, take different shapes, and so you get to apply what giving back means to you. But I think, yeah, it encompasses its. It's why, you know, it encompasses a lot. And. And I think, you know, when you can give back, it can make a difference, but you have to gauge what that means and what that, you know, and what that feels like to you. And. And if it's something you want to engage with at all, that's great. Yeah.
[00:49:14] Speaker A: Personal choice. I mean, I I would say I think there is a selfish basis for philanthropy. I. You know, sometimes we'll meet people who are huge Ayn Rand fans, and they've got to stay stack of Atlas shrugged in their office, and they give them out when they have meetings and what have you. And I'm always like, you know, I think we can help you scale that impact.
There are groups that have expertise that are doing things that you want to see done in the world, and that might be something that's aligned for you. Here's another interesting question from Alan Turner asking high up, Holly, what do you think of parents who believe in corporal punishment? How would you deal with children who misbehave?
[00:49:59] Speaker B: Well, you know, I think that. I think, again, you know, and I said this a few times, but I think each family has to make their own decisions on how they set their boundaries and discipline.
I personally am not a fan of corporal punishment.
I think it can cause more. More harm than good. But. But I think there are instances where you are having a lot of pushback, and you do need to go up, you know, I think, up the ladder to take more severe steps. And so I think, you know, each kid is different, each family is different. And, you know, I think people can get great success from corporal punishment, but I think it instills a level of fear that can cause problems on a deeper emotional level, perhaps for, for your kids. But I think, again, this is a personal choice that you make as a parent, and I think it also stems perhaps from how you were raised. And so I think if you're struggling with how you were raised and if perhaps corporal punishment was part of that programming, think about how you're feeling or how it impacted you, and do you want to pass it on to the next generation, and that is your choice as a parent. But for me, corporal punishment is not the answer. But, but that is just my, that's just my basis.
[00:51:16] Speaker A: Anything else? I mean, your book covers so much. Maybe if we could put up the COVID again and encourage our viewers to check it out. But, Holly, anything else that you didn't get to cover with my questions? Any other final thoughts you'd like to leave the audience with?
[00:51:40] Speaker B: No. You know, I think, you know, in terms of my book, you know, I wrote this book, stop, drop, grow and glow, really, to help, you know, parents take, take their parenting to the next level and to help parents, you know, parent with more peace, patience, and intentionality and ultimately joy, you know. And so I think I really want to help people learn to thrive in their life, especially as parents, and not just survive, because I think a lot of people are in survival mode. And so, you know, if, if this is something that's resonating for you, I think my book could be a great companion, but I don't have any other additional questions. I'm just super grateful for the opportunity to be here to help serve your community and you jag well, and we.
[00:52:22] Speaker A: Are grateful for you. So thank you so much, Holly. I'm looking forward to the day when we get to meet in person. I hope that won't be too long. I want to also thank all of you who raised your hand, had great questions, made this a more interactive hour to spend together. And as always, if you enjoyed this show, if you enjoy any of our other programming or materials, please consider making a tax deductible donation to the Atlas Society at atlas society.org donate and we will see you next week. Thanks, everybody.
