Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the 211th episode of the Atlas Society. Ask. My name is Lawrence Olivo. I'm the senior project manager here at the Atlas Society, the leading nonprofit organization teaching young people about the ideas of Ayn Rand in fun and creative ways, like through animated videos and graphic novels. This week, our CEO, Jennifer Grossman has the week off, but I'm excited to have with me Today Atlas Society senior fellow Antonella Marti for a special interview with our guest Ricardo Avellar and Nelson Ryuda. Before I begin to introduce our guest, I want to remind those of you watching on Instagram x, Facebook, LinkedIn, or YouTube. You can use the comment section down below and we'll to type your questions. We'll try to get to as many as we can. Ricardo Avalar and Nelson Ryota are both el salvadorian journalists who are going to join us today for a deep dive into the current economic and sort of political situation in El Salvador. Thanks to its current president, Naib Bukele. Everyone, thank you for joining us today. Antonella, I'll pass it over to you.
[00:01:10] Speaker B: Thank you, Lawrence. Hi, everyone. Thank you for the introduction.
I want to start with Ricardo and just wanted to ask you, how did Bukele rise to power in El Salvador?
[00:01:27] Speaker C: So the way I see it. Hi, everyone. Thank you for having me. It's good to see Nelson as well. Great colleague.
The way I see it, El Salvador is one of many latin american countries that reached a stage of democratization after authoritarian military governments in the late eighties to early nineties. And with democratization and institutionalization came a promise. And the promise was that people were going to lead prosperous, safe lives and they were going to be happy, you know, like democracy brought the opportunity to stop fighting, to stop, you know, combating ideas with bullets and start combating ideas with ideas.
And what ended up happening is that we had 2030 years, sorry, of governments, both from the right wing and the left wing in El Salvador. And they were corrupt and they did not know how to manage resources, ended up fattening particular wallets when the country grew poorer and poorer. And then after 30 years of failed governments, there was someone who managed to capture the anger of a country, the anger of an entire country that was tired of corruption, tired of poor governance, tired of insecurity. We were the murder capital of the world in 2015. So whoever managed to capture that and turn it into relatable messages, especially in the social media age, was going to seize a lot of power. And that was Nabokale. So Nabokele started his career as well. He, a self proclaimed central left man who was a big fan of Hugo Chavez, according to tweets he has now deleted.
He was fans of like different, like Che Guevara and some other figures.
But once he reached power, he has, he has, well, he has turned very authoritarian and he has been embraced by an increasingly conservative fan base. And when I say conservative, I mean like wacky conspiracy theory fan base. And that is pretty much where we are now. We're dealing with a president who's seizing power, who's grabbing it all, who is at the same time leading a really corrupt administration. And that has effectively turned his administration into almost a quasi religious one in the last few days and last few months. So that's where we are now. I'm sure we can delve into more details, but that's, that has been sort of the story of El Salvador.
[00:04:05] Speaker B: And what can you say about this re election?
[00:04:10] Speaker C: One, that it's completely unconstitutional, that goes against all the rules that El Salvador tried to set itself for in the path not only to democratization, but also for peace and to further prevent new autocrats, new dictators. So that would, that's, that's, you know, there's a reason behind the provision of the reelection in El Salvador. And it is so that no matter how popular someone is, you're not going to let them grab power based on a very, you know, momentaries popularity. And so, yeah, Bokeh may be legitimized by some, some successes in security, but he is going against all of the rules that we set to prevent further, you know, more dictatorships in the future.
And I think it's a bet that is dangerous. And I think that we are soon going to see that El Salvador may follow the path of other countries that did the same thing and encounter the same results, be it left or right.
[00:05:12] Speaker B: And how, how have Bukele's policies impacted the economy and maybe social conditions in El Salvador? Because the economy is not doing that well. Am I right? Nelson, would you like to tell us something about it, or, Ricardo, what are your thoughts on this topic?
[00:05:34] Speaker D: Well, there are more poor people in El Salvador now than they were when Bukele started being president in 2019. So if that's one of the measurements that we're going to go by, no, the economy is not doing well.
You can see that in every poll, every public opinion poll that is published nowadays, everybody says that the economy is the major concern. It used to be the security. And you have to accept and you have to recognize it's a better verb that Bukele has had success in changing the security condition. The homicide levels have dropped, and people feel, themselves feel, they say that they feel more secure in the streets. This has been at a huge cost of human rights, a huge cost of liberties, of civil liberties in El SAlVador right now under the state of exemption that is so applauded, especially around the CPAC, around the conservative circles, in the right wing, in the english speaking world, you would, you would be like, astonished to know how little defense we have as Salvadorans when we are in court. We don't have the right to an attorney. We don't have the right. The constitution says that you have to be presented 72 hours after you're arrested to a tribunal, to a courthouse. We don't have that right anymore. The state can go through your phone or through your mail or through your personal information without a warrant under the state of exemption. These are all things that would make people, you know, people that say that they appreciate and maybe appreciate liberty so much civil liberties.
This has been the cost of the security change in El Salvador. And to some, to that society that I belong to, this has been a fair price to pay because people have never known the security, have never known, have never really lived peacefully in their homes. But I do think it brings up a question where if the Bukele, if the so called Bukele model is someone that you would desire, if you would be willing to pay the price that we have paid, that we are paying to have those kind of results in security while at the same time not having any kind of results in the economy, one in $4, that secrecy is our economy comes from remittances. Bitcoin has not made a dent on any of that.
So, yeah, the economy is obviously Bukele's biggest challenge right now.
[00:08:32] Speaker B: Ricardo, what are your thoughts on this? You want to mention something?
[00:08:36] Speaker C: Yeah, I think, you know, Bukele says that his first term was focused around security. And I agree with Nelson. There are, you know, it's an objective truth that El Salvador is a safer country now, but it is safe from the threat of gangs. But we are increasingly aware that it is not safe from the threat of the state. And I know that some of people may be watching and are like defenders of liberty and loving liberty, understand that the threat of the state can sometimes be as dangerous as a threat from any or of any criminal group. So that's one thing to consider.
Now, the economy. The economy is not something that they have really taken seriously. I think his biggest idea so far was bitcoin. And I see that there's a question here that if bitcoin doesn't go against authoritarian control, well, it is when it's voluntary. But in El Salvador, we had, we were forced taxpayers, we were forced to finance and fund this bitcoin plan, which is, which does not resemble the whole idea of bitcoin, which was voluntary. You assume the risk, if you want to assume the risk. And what ended up happening is that we ended up throwing hundreds of millions of dollars. And mind you, this is a really poor country that spent a lot of money in bitcoin. And the only thing it has achieved is getting the president new friends. That is. That is it. These are people who come from the states or other countries, and they are shown the country around like vip tourists using public resources, including helicopters paid by the government.
But it hasn't done anything for people in our high streets and in our little towns and everything. And now the president says that his second term is dedicated to address the lack of economic growth. And he did say in his inauguration address that the three things they have to do to achieve, or we have to do as a country to achieve growth are, one, let the government work without the people complaining. Two, stop complaining, not say anything. Believe in it, including the fact that we're going to have to drink bitter medicine, as he called it. And three, believe in God, because this will require a miracle. When you hear those words, you understand that you're not in front of a, you know, a statesman with, with clear and sound policy ideas. You may be in front of a cult leader. And that is, I think, what's going on in El Salvador right now. There's no plan. There's no big ideas. There are no experts. You know, the economy requires technical knowledge. It requires people who know what they're talking about. And what's going on in El Salvador is that the president is surrounding himself by yes men. And lately he brought an expert, he brought a new advisor, and this new advisor that the president is introducing country as a leading AI expert. His biggest achievement, at least what we could, what we could find, is that he wrote a book on how to improve your business by using Pokemon Go. So this is the El Salvador, the Bukele model that people are talking about. It's more like a cult.
[00:11:58] Speaker B: So we are definitely concerned about the rule of law, right?
[00:12:04] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, if it existed.
[00:12:08] Speaker B: Nelson, would you like to mention something?
[00:12:13] Speaker D: I think there's. So there's two problems. Rule of law is something that exists and applies for people like us, people like Ricardo and me, and Salvo, who have had the opportunity to have a college education, which is only 11% of the country. I don't know what the percentage of the country speaks English and I don't know.
A lot of them don't get these opportunities to talk in platforms like this. I believe that that makes it that responsibility for us to talk in the name of people that in 80% of the country earns less than dollar 400 a month.
So when you talk about these big words, rule of law, democracy, separation of powers, checks and balances, these are only things that we were concerned about because we could afford to be concerned about them because we weren't dealing with basic, the Maslow pyramid, basic needs of food and shelter, essentially. And this is what insecurity in this for if you were a Salvadoran living under the fest of gangs and you have, like, a teenage outside of your house controlling who went in and out of the community that you live in, you were not thinking of rule of law when that existential danger ceased or at least gave people some breathing room. They were. And I think we, as a country, are so thankful that we're not just, you know, breathing or searching for oxygen that you don't really care about other. About all the rest of things. What has happened is that in the process of that, the men who did the change in security also controlled and managed to get ahold of all the state institutions. And you can get and you can discuss if that was the only way to do it. But the fact of the matter is that now, if you are in any chance in El Salvador against someone from the state, a policeman, a soldier, a judge, if you get fired from your government job, if you. If you have a house and the government is going to build a road through the land that this house sits in, if you anything that you go against the government, you don't have anything that defends you, the minister of jobs or the minister of labor will not be on your favor in the case against the government, because it's controlled by the same man.
There are no independent judges, and we are dealing with the consequences of that. Right now.
The Legislative assembly does not debate issues. The bitcoin law was approved in 85 minutes, which is less than a soccer match.
This is the state of things that we are right now. So, yeah, I don't think we can talk about a rule of law anymore in Salbar. And this is concerning for the people who understand why that is important.
Unfortunately, a lot of our society lives, lives that don't make them realize how important it is. And by the time they go and find out, there's nothing else to do.
[00:15:41] Speaker B: And what about the future of the country? Like, do you see there's a chance of, like, to see him leave power or like, what's going to happen next? How's going to be the next administration if there is a different president or someone?
I'm, is he willing to leave power in, in El Salvador or I'm gonna.
[00:16:10] Speaker D: I'm gonna get in trouble here. But he's, he would, his pro answer probably would be something like, if there are, if there are fair elections, like people might be used to in the states.
I don't think so. I don't think that there's a way that we can get past Avoukela administration where he will willingly surrender power.
Because if that would have happened, it would have happened by now. The law prohibited that he continued term. He acknowledged this in several interviews before 2021. And then when he replaced the constitutional court and he replaced the judges, and they were the ones that decided that Bukele could do what the constitution has said for 200 years that he couldn't do. I don't know if there's a way back from that.
The law already prohibits this. Why would he, now that he has all the power, go back to a place where he go base the law? I don't think there are any institutions or individuals left in El Salvador that have the power to make Bukele obey the laws. And so I don't see it. The history tells us in this country, we haven't had a single person stay in power illegally like Bukele since 1935. The last one was Maximilian Hernandez Martinez. He started his presidency in 1932. He stayed until 1944. And he didn't surrender power. He was ousted by a popular strike that went throughout the whole country. So if history says something, these people that stay in power don't relinquish it that easily.
[00:18:02] Speaker B: Yeah. And I do want to focus on the importance of the rule of law and the importance of democracy, because this makes me think, think about Venezuela.
They already have 27 constitutions, if I'm not wrong. So it's like step by step, it's something like, it's like a guide, you know, they do that every single time. We got used to this in Latin America. So is there a way we can compare this manipulation of the constitution or the branches of the state? What can you tell me about this, Ricardo? Maybe if you want to say something about it.
[00:18:48] Speaker C: Yes, I just wanted to comment quickly on the rule of law, because you mentioned it earlier, and this is something. Maybe Nelson can tell us more about it because it's his outlet that published this.
But they found police documents, police statements, when they arrested people under the state of exception right now. And in many cases, they arrested people because they seemed nervous. Now, I don't know how many of you watching are like me, and you get nervous and you're walking in the street or you're anxious or whatever. We would all be in prison under the things we saw there. And I just wanted to comment on that for you to think about how absurd it is that you can end up in prison, not being able to see a judge for 15 days and then maybe in prison for up to two years without a sentence, you know, without being sentenced just because he seemed nervous to a police officer. So I just wanted to say that now, compared to Venezuela, it's curious that in this roller coaster that Bukele has meant for El Salvador, he is the kind of man who used to wish Hugo Chavez happy birthday on Twitter. Then when he was about to be inaugurated in 2019, when he first won the presidency, his legitimate one in 2019, he said a couple of days before his inauguration that he was uninviting the leaders of Nicaragua, Honduras, and Venezuela. And the reason he said that is that they were against democracy. And he said they like different paraphrasing him, he said that they did not care about setting their countries on fire. They wanted to stay in power and conduct a power grab. So this was, you know, for, for a continent. I mean, we knew what kind of man he was before he got to the presidency. But to some extent, it was like, all right, interesting that he's, he's, when he gets to presidency, he's trying to distance himself from the kind of people who would bend the rules, the kind of people who would only adhere to the constitution when the constitution says what they want to do, and if not, they can create their new constitution.
So it was, it was, you know, it seemed like he was trying to distance himself. And Nelson was talking about, like, how Bukele said and acknowledge he couldn't be reelected. He, he had a quote unquote interview, and I say quote unquote because he doesn't do interviews with local journalists. He only speaks to foreign, not even foreign media. He does sometimes, but he mostly speaks with, like, influencers, youtubers, or bitcoiners.
He told a mexican influencer that he could be, this is before he had complete control of the state. He told this influencer that he could be reelected 80 times, but not continuously. So he knows he said it. He said it himself. His vice president said it, too. But then in the middle of his term, you know, they control the constitutional court. They remove the justices legitimately named, legitimately said in the court, they impose five puppets in a suit. That's effectively what they are, five puppets.
And then months later, to no one's surprise, they say, well, he can be reelected now doing a very audacious interpretation of a constitutional article that clearly says they cannot, that no one can be re elected. So anyway, they were, they were sanctioned by the US. They were pariahs for a little bit in the, you know, in the lawyer community in El Salvador, but ended up being embraced by the government. And they were like, all right, cool. Now he can be reelected. A year after that controversial ruling, Bukele, in, in his address on Independence Day, said that after careful consideration and discussion with his family, he accepted. You know, it's like a gift for him. He's saying, like, or like some sort of sacrifice. He's like, yes, I will do this. I talked to my family and they allowed me to keep being your president. And this is no sacrifice. This was his plan all along. But anyway, he won reelection now in the middle of his first term, they also started talking about a new constitution. So this is, in some countries, they have pretty much enacted new constitutions. In El Salvador, they are. They suggested doing it through the way of constitutional reforms. So instead of drafting a new one, they were going to change some articles from the Constitution that we already have. And that was supposed to or was designed to prevent abuses of power. What ended up happening is that they presented a draft project which amended, like 240 of our 270 some articles, which is effectively a new constitution. And it's a constitution that cuts limits on power. So it's a constitution allowing him to do more and more and more.
So when you compare this idea of constitution, that every president wants their own constitution, if you think about it, and this will resound with everyone who's from Latin America or is familiar with our history. This does not sound like governments. This does sound like what we call, like, haciendas, you know, like big farms or presidents, when they want to reenact or enact their own constitutions, they do not see themselves as elected officials for a certain period under a set of rules. They see themselves as the owners of this land. And I think that is how Bukele sees himself in El Salvador. So he effectively thinks that he can create his own rules, and then under that, no one is safe going back to the rule of law. The only rule of law in El Salvador, the one that matters, is that if. If Bukele likes you, you're safe. If Ukele doesn't like you, it's a matter of time until someone can happen to you, something can happen to you.
[00:24:38] Speaker B: Lawrence, are there any questions from the audience that you would like to mention?
[00:24:46] Speaker A: Sure. We've got a number of questions coming in from YouTube in particular. The first one we have here comes in, let's see, from Alan Turner, who asks, how much freedom of the press is there in El Salvador? Has it gotten worse? I'm assuming he means under Bukele.
[00:25:09] Speaker D: I have.
I have a direct answer to that, because there are people who are dedicated. It's easy for me as a journalist, and I think you already can tell I don't like Bukele's policies that much to say that it has gotten worse. But the reporters without Borders, they make a ranking every year, ranking every country in the world for the freedom of the present. They have several measures. So, in 2013, El Salvador was in position number 38 of 180. And this year, we are in position 133rd. 133. So we have dropped 97 positions in, uh, nine years. So that. That's, uh, that's what happened. Why, you might ask? Well, a bunch of us got, including Ricardo and me, got hacked with Pegasus, uh, in between 2020, 2021. Pegasus is this israeli weapon that allows you to basically clone everybody's phone. They were in my phone for 62 days. Basically, the whole newsroom of El Faro was infected. Newsrooms, journalists from other newsrooms, like Ricardo and like others, were affected. Civil society leaders, opposition politicians. That happened. There have been an enormous number or increase in the attacks against journalists via the harassment, via judicial persecution, including making journalists and newspapers to publish rectifications done by judges. In this judicial system that we have been talking about, there have been journalists who have left the country, who have exiled themselves.
There's increasing self censorship. You cannot be critical about Bukele, basically in mainstream television or in the radios.
So, yeah, the freedom of the press has gotten a turn for the worst over the last five years.
[00:27:29] Speaker A: Another question that comes in also from YouTube. This one comes from lockstock and barrel. Who asks, what caused Buckley to come to power? Why did people choose him over, I'm assuming, any other presidential candidate at the time.
[00:27:46] Speaker C: If I may. I think I touched a little bit when we first started, but it's frustration, you know, in a poor society, when governments dedicated themselves to plundering and they pretty much, like, endangered the future of countless generations by just, you know, fattening their wallets and neglecting public needs. This meant that, you know, it was very obvious that they were protecting themselves and they were corrupt. And this is 20 years of the right that led to ten years of the left. And the left had a big promise. And, you know, they said, we're going to fix things. They're going to turn to, like, the social issues. And they didn't. And they became, they became as corrupt or more corrupt than their right wing counterparts. Then it created a sense of frustration, a sense of despair, a sense of, you know, no one is actually looking out for El Salvador. And this is when, when someone like Bukele became popular, you know, and his, his motives were very simple. May they return what they stole. That was the first thing the Spanish like that was. That was in people's minds. This is, this is what he was promising, that all those who took a single penny of, you know, public funds, they were going to return it. And what has happened is that five years later, there have been a few minor cases. They have persecuted people from the past, but then people from his administration, people with credible reports of corruption, with plenty of evidence, they have not been persecuted. They have been embraced, they have been protected.
One of the things that Bukele promised, and this was his, like, start, his start promise when he was, when he was in his first campaign, was that he was going to bring an international anti corruption commission, kind of like they had in Guatemala, that managed to, you know, bring down a government because of corruption. So Bukhali promised the same thing. And in his first address as president, people interrupted him to start chanting Sicillas, which is the name of that commission. And Bukele delivered on that promise. He brought it three months after he got inaugurated, curiously enough, on that day, linking this with a previous question, the day he presented the commission, the anti corruption commission, he prevented two or three media outlets, including Nelson's and including the one I work for now, from getting to the press conference. So he said, I am launching this anti corruption campaign, an anti corruption commission, but I'm not going to let these two or three media outlets into the conference. So that's the message. You know, at the time, there were a few newspapers that covered this and denounced, you know, that the president was blocking the media from his launch and those outlets were punished by removing, you know, public contracts. In El Salvador, newspapers publish, like, you know, public service announcements from the government. And it's a way of, you know, finding revenue. And the government removed it from all of them, from them, effectively making it, you know, a sort of game of punishment if you don't, if you don't publish what the government likes. This commission existed for a little less than a year and a half, and it got. It got killed by the government when this anti corruption commission found corruption cases within his government. So that is. That is, you know, people elected him because they thought he was going to be able to solve insecurity and solve corruption. He has dealt with insecurity, as Nelson said, but corruption has been more of like, you know, a means to seize power, to persecute political opponents and to solidify his control and his embracing of corrupt officers in his administration.
[00:31:37] Speaker A: This question, also from YouTube, goes a little bit broader than the scope today, but I will bring it up just for the three of you to discuss, potentially talking about. You mentioned the rule of law. This question comes from Kingfisher 21 asking who has the weakest judicial branch? El Salvador, Argentina, Brazil. And I could say, you could probably expand that to others if you think there are ones that are worse.
[00:32:06] Speaker D: I don't have an extensive knowledge of Argentina or brazilian judicial branch. I would say that in salvo, we don't have any war criminal convicted for their crimes through the dictatorship. You cannot say the same about Argentina.
I think there's a temptation to always think the words of our countries and in the worst of four situations, and obviously, I'm not exempt from the temptation, but I think that there are objective reasons that you could say that Argentina and Brazil have stronger institutions than El Salvador has. El Salvador only was a democracy from 1992 to 2021 or 24 if you want to establish it now.
I would say that we're not a democracy anymore.
Whilst, you know, Argentina, you know, Millet is this character that is obviously trying to wreak havoc in the status quo. But I don't think that he has managed, or I don't know if he has the intention, but he has not managed yet to get a hold of the whole judicial branch. I think if that was the case, he would be progressing much more, much faster to his agenda. And in the case of Brazil, I think they were very challenged, very, very challenged in the sense of the whole Bolsonaro presidency, but they managed to withhold the storm. So if it was a question between those three countries, I would say I would put my money on El Salvador as having the weakest judicial branch.
[00:33:56] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree. I would say that Bukele has taken severe and direct steps against judicial independence. He removed constitutional justices from the constitutional court. He replaced them with puppets in suits.
He also, a month or two later, he got his. His people in Congress to approve this decree, effectively removing a third of the country's justices and judges and replacing them with, you know, younger, pretty justices or judges that were complacent and very indulgent with his agenda. And there was a threat to all the judges in the country that if they. If they ruled against the interests of the ruling elite or the government, they would be either removed or replaced. And there were a few judges that remained independent. And after rulings that were controversial for the government or for the government's interests, they were sent to lower tribunals, tribunals that don't like, you know, in, like, really small towns and, like, far corners of El Salvador. So I don't think that has happened. They also removed the attorney general. They imposed a new attorney general who had worked close to Bukele before. So they. I feel like there may be intentions in Brazil, there may be intentions, or there were more so in the. In the Bolsonaro administration. There may be intentions with millet. But in El Salvador, there are no longer intentions there. There have been objective steps to undermine judicial independence. And I think judicial independence in El Salvador is a thing of the past now.
[00:35:38] Speaker A: Okay, another question, this one comes from Ricari Thomas asking, is there a housing crisis in El Salvador? If there is, what can be done to solve it? And I guess you've already mentioned a bit about the sort of. The economic situation. This is perhaps a bit more in the weeds, but maybe you could explain that a bit more. What's going on there?
[00:35:58] Speaker D: There is a housing crisis in El Salvador in the sense that there is a crisis house in the whole world. That you cannot just very few people that can go by this financial advice that you shouldn't be paying more than 30% of your income in renting a place or in the mortgage of your house.
There's been very few people that can do that. I cannot do that.
We have seen this in several ways in the gentrification in certain areas, especially around the shoreline, which is a phenomenon that it's ongoing, partly fueled by the bitcoin appeal. Bitcoin has been an economical failure by the government, but a publicitarian and advertising success in portraying El Salvador as this land of opportunities and liberties, which also boasts the highest right of incarceration in the world.
But there has been an appeal for people to come to places like El Sante, El Tunco, La Union.
This area is called, like, surf city, or label as Surf City. And this has driven up the cost of real estate in the area. Also in San Salvador, you are getting places with the.
That would fit in markets like in price terms, in markets like Houston, while we have national income, 80% of the people earns $400 or less. So there is a crisis in houses. What can be done to solve it? I think, I don't know if that's going to be popular in this particular audience, but I think regulations, you have to regulate, and you have several states in Europe that are regulating, like Barcelona. New York, I think, has done it, regulating, for instance, these Airbnbs, the rentals, because that is happening. You're building houses and apartments for people that don't live here, and that drives up the expense. Also, the investment of the government does in real and in the social living in social buildings, in people buildings that are addressed to people with low income. We have not seen a huge amount of that in the country. So I think there is a couple of things can be done, but it is a crisis. It's not something that is making any headlines, and it's not between the country's top proprieties.
[00:38:49] Speaker B: What do you think about that, Ricardo? Do you think regulations will work, or should we go for free market instead?
[00:38:58] Speaker C: I believe that free markets can only exist. I believe there are only certain countries in certain conditions and certain times and places in which free markets could be an acceptable subject to this cause. As in El Salvador, the free markets discussion is beyond any possible scenario because we do not have a rule of law, because we effectively have a ruling elite that has different rules as everyone else in the country, and because they treat their friends with high privileges. So I believe that we are beyond the discussion of free markets in the current stage. In El Salvador, what we see is that there are high gentrification efforts, and they do not respond to the nature of the free market. They respond to privileges. They respond to people coming with particular benefits that not everyone in the society gets. And these are benefits and privileges paid for by. With public funds, including the whole bitcoin scheme that has allowed a lot of people to come, not to bring investments, as the government boasts, but to, you know, buy a cheap house, set foot there, and then there's nothing that prevents, you know, the, you know, the migration or displacement of all the communities, of locals who have found themselves having to leave their communities wherever they try to establish their livelihoods because they can no longer afford it. So I believe that in a country like El Salvador, under the current state of affairs, free markets are no longer, you know, a real subject, because we are, we are talking about an elite with their own rules.
So I'm gonna have to agree with Nelson. I think this is, these disparities have been created by, you know, distortions create by law and by the state. And I think they can only be addressed by regulations set for by the state of. If not, I think it's going to be an illusion to think that there will be a clarity of rules, clear path to investments, and a free market that will address our current problems.
[00:41:13] Speaker A: Another question, this one also comes from YouTube. It goes back to still in this economic focus.
The question coming from Guardian Gamer was for you, Nelson, but everyone else can chip in as well. But it's asking where.
Ah, here we go. Do you think El Salvador might create a central bank digital currency? Do you think they'll move away from bitcoin to try to have more control over the economic situation?
[00:41:43] Speaker D: I think you have to understand that bitcoin has been part, principally a advertising gimmick for the Bukele government. People in El Salvador don't use bitcoin in their daily lives. You and I have zero fears of saying this. Come to El Salvador and do not bring any cash and do not bring any credit card. Just bring your bitcoin wallet and try to live in this country for five days. Just paying in bitcoin, because you will find that bitcoin is like a tourist thing, that people, you can go to Elsun, pay some things there, but you will need it because you will need other means of payment because 80% of the country doesn't use it. I think that's an 80% of the country didn't use it once throughout 2022. And it's less and less and less. And when you ask vendors that accept bitcoin, and you ask them, hey, who buys this? They always say, oh, it's the gringos, it's the foreigners, the tourists. So when you say El Salvador adopted bitcoin, I always put in the question mark, did it really? Because people are not using it with regards to cbdcs. Bukele already.
There was already a plan before Bukele. I'm going to put you a link so you can share it to all of the audience. Back in 2021, we published the idea. The original idea behind the bitcoin adoption was to launch a salvadoran digital currency. In that moment, they disregarded that plan. For the moment, I don't think there has been too much movement with regards to cbdcs now, especially after the crypto burnout summer of 2022, things started to go down to cool off a little bit. You haven't seen if you pay attention to El Salvador, because you haven't heard about the volcano bonds in a while. There was this offer to invest in a new hotel, in a new Hilton hotel, I think it was. And you would buy this through the platform that's going to sell the bitcoin bonds. That offer didn't collect what it was supposed to do. So I don't think. And obviously, this is not a popular policy for Bukele in El Salvor. He doesn't, he hasn't talked about bitcoin in Spanish in almost two years. He only tweets about this in English. So bitcoin is a policy to attract other people, to attract people that are non Salvadorians, that are mainly english speaking, and if serves for him as a advertising campaign.
But I don't think he is in the economy side. He's got bigger fish to fry for now. He's desperately trying to get to secure an agreement with the IMF, which would not be super popular with the bitcoin crowd that says, oh, you know, fuck the IMF or whatever, but that's where the chips are playing right now. That's where I. So I don't think that, I don't expect to see a wide movement towards cbdcs in the near future. It doesn't make sense at this time for him.
[00:45:18] Speaker B: I see a very interesting question there. It says Das Bukele style himself as a populist regard.
How do we, how can we identify a populist? I mean, we're from Latin America, so we know, we know about it, but what can you say about, about this? How can we identify populist leader or messiah?
[00:45:45] Speaker C: Okay, so first of all, I want to start by sharing an anecdote with you all. When I was in 2012, from 2012 to 2015, I ran this, like, small ngo in El Salvador. And we used to talk about, like, rule of law and democracy and human rights and so on. And there were, you know, in 2013, we decided to draft this, like, sort of commitment that we were sending out to politicians around the country. And it was, you know, just a big statement saying, I will commit to being transparent, not abusing public resources, blah blah. And there was one item that says, I will refrain from being. From resorting to populist measures, blah blah. So we sent it out to different politicians around the country. Some signed it, some didn't. And Bukele replied to us via Twitter. And this is when he was mayor of a small town. He was not as popular as he is now. I think he had like 1000 Twitter followers now, not the millions he has.
And he replied to us like, ha ha ha. As long as you delete, you know, as long as you remove the populist club, I will sign it. So he has never been, he's never been afraid of using this. Then I think in a public forum. He once said, a lot of people complain about populists, but I'm telling you that if a populist means that you're gonna draft regulations and rule for the country and along with the country and the people, then I will be a populist. So he's a kind of politician who embraces all of the attacks that he gets. You know, whenever he gets a label, he will embrace it. He will set it as his Twitter bio. So it's no surprise that throughout the years he's been president, he has, for example, described himself in his Twitter bio as the coolest dictator in the world, as a philosopher king, as the. So back to the question. I think he is, he's not afraid to be labeled as populist. And I think he responds very well to the academic description of a populist, which is, you know, person that disregards institutions, that makes everything revolve around themselves, that presents society in terms of us and them good, including people who support me and applaud me bad. Whose people who may have questions, not only the opposition, but journalists, like Nelson, like myself, you know, people who have questions, citizens who may want to know when there's going to be a housing project, when there's going to be, you know, an initiative to alleviate poverty, all of those people will be considered enemies, evil, bad, by the Bukhara administration. And if they happen to be in the wrong side of town at the wrong time, they might even be arrested. So if you, if you base I yourself, if you base your definition of populist by that, by someone who's personalistic, by someone who makes all of the institutions revolt around their own, you know, their, their own mood, whatever they want that day, then he is a populist. He disregards the rules. He disregards the constitution. He disregards institutions. He makes institutions revolve around himself. So, yeah, I think he is a populist. He's not a populist in the sense that he would have want to be. He's not a populist in a sense of being a ruler, you know, of the people, but also with the people and for the people.
He's a populist in the sense of disregarding rules and not a populist in the sense of, he doesn't govern for the people. He governs for himself, his family, his group of friends. And this image, this fantasy that he has created around El Salvador as, you know, the land of liberty.
[00:49:38] Speaker B: If I take you back to the concept we were talking about, the economy, we can say that there's no economic freedom in El Salvador. Right? Are there any rankings or something that you can mention? There's no economic freedom. Am I right?
[00:50:02] Speaker C: I don't know. I'm just going to say that there's no economic freedom without rule of law, and there's no rule of law in El Salvador. So as long as, you know, 80% of the people or 60% of people live in fear, which is like, according to a recent poll, it's just an illusion to talk about economic freedom. I don't know what Nelson thinks.
[00:50:20] Speaker D: How do you define economic freedom?
[00:50:23] Speaker B: I mean, free markets being able to, you know, buy the things you want.
What would you say about that? Like, can we say that there are free markets or not at all? I, I mean, is it an open economy? Can you trade with, with other countries?
[00:50:47] Speaker D: It is. It is an open economy in that sense. I just keep going back to the, for me, this is the most corporate government that we've had in El Salvador since Paco Flores, which was the nineties, the whole neoliberalization era. Everything in the country is getting privatized. In a sense. The government is building.
It has its own newspaper, its own construction company, its own news channel. It's all, it's, it's.
And the contracts usually go because we don't have any information about this. Everything is a secret.
Everything is a secret for seven years. So we don't have a lot of information about where the contracts go, where the money is flowing. I don't think that you can talk about freedom in that sense.
If you have free markets, I would say, sure, until you get in the way of the president. And if you get in the way of the president, you won't have any sort of way to, you know, to sort it out. There were no, there will be no checks and balances in the sense that you can buy everything that you want. No, the basic grocers that you need in a month are more than half the average income and more than half the minimum wage. So I wouldn't portray us as a free country in that economic sense. I would portray as a safer country than five years ago.
But I don't think it's funny because I've been attending and I've been covering bitcoin since the implementation.
And they talked to me about the origins of bitcoin. I read the fountain head to try to understand the side guys of these people. And what I understand now and what I encounter is that it's how can you defend freedom, economical freedom, through bitcoin, if that's the only freedom you have left, if you don't have freedom of association, of expression, of press, of electing officials in the future?
And you want to say that we have economic freedom just because bitcoin is a, quote, unquote, legal tender, it would be hard to characterize the country as that.
[00:53:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Now that we talk about. Now that we talk about bitcoin, Lawrence, maybe you want to mention something about the interviews we did with Michael Saylor on bitcoin and where can we find the videos? Can you mention that?
[00:53:54] Speaker A: Yes. So those of you who are watching us on YouTube and or Facebook, after this video, of course, you can be either check the comment section here momentarily, or you can check on the channel page afterwards. Had released last week a very excellent interview with Antonella Marti, interviewing Michael Saylor, part one of a series of masterclass interviews, talking about what fuels civilization, talking about bitcoin and talking about these ideas. So we'll put a link in the chat and again, keep watching as more videos come up each week.
[00:54:28] Speaker B: Thank you. I think we're running out of time, but are there any.
[00:54:33] Speaker C: Can I quickly, quickly add something to what Nelson was saying? Because I believe that for the people watching, it is really important to understand that, you know, a distinction between the ideas of liberty and what is going on in El Salvador. I love the way that Nelson says it. You cannot talk about a free country if bitcoin is the only free thing.
And I would argue that when we first heard about bitcoin back in, like, you know, late 2000, like late 2000, early teens, we learned that it was, it was an idealistic way, like decentralized currency that wasn't forced, that was completely voluntary. That is not the case in El Salvador. We were forced. No one asked us if we wanted to do this. The announcement was first made in a conference in Miami in English. So this was, this was something that, you know, Salvadorans did not have a choice to accept or not accept. That is, on the one hand, on the second hand, I want to point out a few examples. Economic freedom, I think, requires rule of law, requires certainty of the rules. And knowing that your investments. And you say, can you invest in El Salvador? Yes, you can invest in El Salvador. They have actually reformed a few rules and regulations that will cut taxes if you bring money into the country. So, yes, you could do that. But are you safe from arbitrary intervention from the state? I don't think you are. I'm going to point out two examples. Last year, they tried to approve this regulation.
There's regulation to support the firefighters in El Salvador. And it seemed like it was a pretty, not like, non threatening piece of legislation to support the firefighters. But there, in one hidden article there, it said that in order to support firefighters, they were going to establish a 5% contribution or a 5% tax on every insurance policy in the country. Now the government tries to sell itself as a. As a, you know, pro government, sorry, as a pro business sort of administration. They say they're not going to impose new taxes, but that was a hidden tax. And they said that, you know, it's a, it's a. It's a new contribution to support the firefighters. A few minutes before the session in which they approved this legislation, they changed the rules and they removed the firefighters from this tax. So they said you're going to charge 5% for every insurance policy and it's going to go to the general fund of the country. So you effectively created a new tax. And then last year, the banking system, you know, El Salvador is struggling financially, and they're trying to scramble for money. And what they're doing is they are, they are issuing bonds in the local banking system, and they are short term debt. And last year, in a surprising and mysterious move, the banking system of El Salvador effectively, like private banks in El Salvador, unilaterally decided to give the government a longer term. Now, I believe that was not their decision. I believe there was some pressure by the government. And it just shows you that, yes, you can invest in El Salvador. Yes, if you can afford some things, you can buy them, but you are never safe from arbitrary intervention. And I believe that free markets require you to be safe from arbitrary intervention. And to quote, you know, late David Boas, who did a lot for the ideas. Freedom. A freedom can be summarized as don't hit people and don't take their stuff.
In El Salvador, people are being, you know, subject to state violence. And there have been countless but numerous government officials who have taken stuff from the public funds, and they have been embraced by the government. So I believe El Salvador is far from being a place of the free.
[00:58:27] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that's why we need to talk about private, private property and property rights, the importance of markets and rule of law. We definitely need more Ayn Rand in Latin America. Lawrence, do you want to.
[00:58:46] Speaker A: Yes. Before we close out, we did get two super chats on YouTube, so I'd like to take a moment. We'll might go a few minutes over, but just to address the questions that are brought up in these two super chats, the first one is comes from Fountainhead forum. Thank you for the dollar five super chat. And they're making the comment. In El Salvador last November, I saw a country that places high value on marriage and family. Contrasts this to the sikh divorce culture in the USA. They follow that up, saying, you can't have free society without stable families. When parents get divorced, the state becomes the parent. So when we talk about here the Atlas Society or just in general liberty movement, about what culture or what ideas are important to keep and embrace a free society, what do you make of that comment? Is the family center important? Should we focus more on individuals? What sort of thoughts do you have based on that comment?
[00:59:42] Speaker D: I think that we have done a very good job of saying that we care about family. I don't think that's true.
I read Anastasia this morning that only 30% of salvadoran adults have been married in the last century.
So this whole, this talking about traditional family and values, which sounds super close to us, to the ultra right wing CPAC maga, things that Bukele is so close to right now, is distance from the reality. I don't know. Maybe salvor is a conservative society. It's mainly christian society where it's catholic or evangelical. And for that reason, we, most of us were raised in an environment where this was place in a high place of importance.
It doesn't necessarily transform to the realities that you see throughout the country. There's also a lot of single parenting. There's also a lot of divorces. There's also.
Maybe we talk about it more than we practice it.
[01:00:51] Speaker C: Yeah. I also believe that if you watch all videos, I think Bukele's worst enemy is Bukele from the past.
There was a video of him before he was president saying that the civil liberties fight of this, of our generation is LGBTQI plus rights, which I agree with, and I side with that, with what he said back then. But if you hear Bukele talk about now, he just fired 300 people from the culture ministry. And the excuse he said, I believe it's a financial thing, but the excuse he said is that they were supporting agendas that were not compatible with the government. This is a few days after he censored or his culture ministry censored a play that talked about or addressed violence against LGBTQI plus people. So I believe that there's just, like bitcoin. I believe that this whole family discourse in El Salvador is just a gimmick. It's just a publicity stunt.
I believe Bukele will say whatever will help him fly float for the next few days or years.
But I also want to ask, what sort of family friendly government can you have if families are being torn apart by mass incarceration, by arbitrary arrests?
There was a report this morning that said that there are like 500 over. Sorry, over 3000 minors arrested under a state of exception, a lot of them being arrested arbitrarily. So I don't believe you can talk about family when. When the state is abusing its powers like that.
[01:02:30] Speaker B: Just a brief. A brief comment. I'm thinking about what Ayn Rand would have said about it. Definitely, like, the government's job is not to impose a specific morality through the state. So just wanted to mention that.
[01:02:51] Speaker A: Okay, we're. Go ahead, Ricardo.
[01:02:54] Speaker C: For decades, El Salvador has not seen separation of church and state.
Religious leaders have had a lot of influence in what the state of El Salvador does, and I don't think we are. I mean, we are one of five countries in the world where there are no exceptions to ban abortions, including risk of life, the mother, incest, or I. Baby's not gonna actually be born. And that was not when this was approved. It was approved because there was a lot of pressure by the religious right and by powerful right wing groups aligned with the catholic church. So I don't. I don't. I don't believe that we have that, what you just said until.
[01:03:39] Speaker A: Okay, we're. We're over time. So. But I want to thank everyone for joining us today. A super chat that came in that relates to the question I was gonna ask next comes to Mark Thomas for a $5 super chat chat asking how we can get in touch with Ricardo and Nelson. How. What's the best way to follow you, too, and to get in touch with any questions.
[01:04:05] Speaker D: The place that used to be called Twitter.
[01:04:08] Speaker C: Yeah, okay. Same Twitter I've just shared in a private chat. My. My handle, I think Nelson has to. So.
[01:04:17] Speaker A: Yeah, perfect. And those have already been added into the chat on YouTube and Facebook as well. So I want, again, thank everyone for joining us today for this interview. I hope those of you watching at home were able to get your questions answered. And if you liked what was talked about today, please consider giving a tax deductible donation to the Atlas Society, helping us continue the work that we're doing.
Be sure to join us. Next week, our CEO, JAg, will be back, and she will be doing an interview with the economist doctor Samuel Greg about his book, the Next American Economy, Nation state and the markets in an uncertain world. Again, Ricardo Nelson Antonella, thank you for joining me today. Take care, everyone.
