Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: And welcome to the 221st episode of the Atlas Society asks. My name is Jennifer Anju Grossman. My friends call me Jag. I'm the CEO of the Atlas Society. We're the leading nonprofit organization introducing young people to the ideas of Ayn Rand in fun, creative ways, including AI. Animated book trailers, draw my life videos, graphic novels, even music videos. Today, we are joined by Felix Maradiaga. Before I even begin to introduce my guest, I want to remind all of you who are watching us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube. You can use the comment section to type in your questions, and we will try to get to as many of them as we can. Felix Maradiaga is a nicaraguan academic political activist, former presidential candidate. After Felix spoke out against the human rights violations of the Daniel Ortega regime during his 2021 presidential bid, the government arrested him and held him in solitary confinement for the alleged crime of, quote, conspiring to undermine national integrity. Two years later, Felix was released from captivity and flown to the US along with 221 other nicaraguan political prisoners, where he was reunited with his family. After serving as the youngest ever secretary general of the Ministry of Defense, Felix has dedicated himself to strengthening peace, democracy, and the rule of law in Nicaragua. As the founding co director of the Civil Society Leadership Institute, he's building a network of nicaraguan grassroots leaders dedicated to advancing liberty, democracy, and nonviolent social change. Felix, thank you for joining us.
[00:01:51] Speaker B: Thank you so much for this kind invitation. It's always an honor, and I appreciate.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: It all the more given that you are in the midst of a very hectic day in New York. Tell us a little bit about what you've been up to today.
[00:02:04] Speaker B: Well, as you know, this week is the high level meetings of the United Nations National General assembly. And members of civil society academia are typically invited to what's called side events. So today is precisely one of those days. And we were very lucky to find a place amongst this very loud, very loud conference center to have this call. But I think it was very important to have this conversation. So I'm very glad.
[00:02:38] Speaker A: Wonderful. So, we usually like to start with a bit of biography. You were a toddler when the Sandinistas first took power, and then you came to the US as a boy and even spent time in a refugee camp. What was that experience like for you as a child?
[00:02:59] Speaker B: Thank you for asking.
It was very hard for me to process this over the years, and it actually took many decades for me to feel comfortable speaking about this. My family, my mother in particular, made the most difficult decision. A mother can make. When I turned twelve, my mother did not want me to be part of the conflict. She didn't want me to be brainwashed by the marxist Sandinista ideology.
At that time, Nicaragua was suffering a civil war and the education system, the country in general, was fully controlled by the Sandinistas. So my mother decided that it was better for me to pursue freedom in another land. So I became eventually an accompanying minor, a refugee in the United States.
And a few months after my coming into the US, I became a foster child with a family that opened their doors for me.
In 1990, the war was over and I came back to Nicaragua after having a little bit more than two years of the refugee experience. And going back to your question, what I learned at a very early age is the precious value of liberty, the value of freedom. We hear many, many times from esteemed colleagues that freedom is not free. And that is indeed true. But in my case, it's something very personal, it's something very intimate, it's something directly LinkedIn to my experience as a refugee, as a member of a family that has been persecuted by the Sandinistas since the 1980s. So it installed in me a sense of deep appreciation for individual freedom.
[00:04:55] Speaker A: To understand your experience and the current situation in Nicaragua, what should our viewers, our audience, know about the countries history and how it took such a repressive turn?
[00:05:11] Speaker B: Otto von Bismarck, when referring to the Balkans, he famously said that there are small countries that produce more history than the history that they can consume. And Nicaragua is indeed part of those countries. It's a very small country, geographically speaking, but with a very relevant geopolitical position. So Nicaragua has been the, the platform for territorial disputes by colonial powers, the British, the US, Spaniards, but also civil wars. It's a country of Central America that in 1979 experienced a revolution that was supposed to be an opportunity for democracy. But the Sandinista movement, inspired by the cuban revolution, turned Nicaragua into a marxist regime that opened another civil war in 1919 and 1990, when we had our first democratic elections. And for 16 years we had a democratic experience. Between 19 92,006, the country turned into a free market economy. We reestablished as a country relationship with the rest of the world. I was also part of one of those biggest democratic governments. But Daniel Ortega came back into power, the same old dictator. Ortega, the relic of the cold war, became again president in 2007, January 2007, and he has been controlling the country ever since then. So I've been trying, alongside other colleagues, to organize a democratic opposition. What should our viewers know? They should note that Nicaragua is a country full of hope.
But unfortunately, at this point, over 15% of the population has been forced into exile. There have been hundreds and hundreds of extrajudicial killings, thousands of political prisoners.
Many of us have been declared stateless, our property has been confiscated. And Daniel Ortega has become a puppet of Vladimir Putin, a puppet of Russia, a puppet of Iran.
[00:07:23] Speaker A: You know, one of the reasons I wanted so much to have you come and visit with us and talk to us is because I worked at Dole Food company for about a dozen years. And as you might know, Dole sourced a huge amount of fruit from Latin America, including specifically Nicaragua. In fact, David DiLorenzo, who would go on to become Dole's CEO, was put in charge of Nicaragua, that division, back in 1972 when he was just 26 years old. And he recounted his experience in Latin America in his memoir, bananas, bullets and politics. And the memoir was very eye opening for me because it helped me to understand something that has confused me for a long time, which is how communism became so entrenched in the psyche of so many in Latin America, particularly with regards to the role of Cuba and the role of the USSR. He described in detail how cuban agents would recruit young people on the high school level from Nicaragua and send them to be educated in Cuba. Then the best and most committed of those would be sent on for further education, indoctrination in the Soviet Union. Once that was completed, they were then sent back to their home country, to Nicaragua, to organize on behalf of the global communist revolution. Does any of this sound familiar to you?
[00:09:05] Speaker B: Absolutely. You have provided a very accurate summary of my very painful country's history, something that is very typical of other countries, like Bolivia, Guatemala, Cubae, Honduras. Of course, every country has its own particularities, its own experience. But I would say that, broadly speaking, the cuban revolution has been the so called revolution. I think that even the word revolution is another statement. The cuban dictatorship, the cuban tyranny, became, as I define it, the head of the serpent of a broader movement. But you brought David de Lorenzo. I'm not familiar with his book, but I've seen a couple of documentaries, and I'm very familiar with the controversy of foreign companies that came to Latin America in different extractive industries. And I will basically say that we've had in Latin America a very difficult history with a foreign investment, and that has given capitalism a bad name. I like to, as a free market, a person myself, I always insist that there's a big difference between chronic capitalism and free markets and true capitalism. And what latin american experience for many decades, is a combination of foreign companies that worked very closely with the military dictatorships of the time that did not pay attention to labor rights, they did not pay attention to fundamental freedoms.
And instead of tackling these, as democracies do, through free elections, by giving more power to individuals, by giving more.
[00:10:56] Speaker A: Rule.
[00:10:57] Speaker B: Of law to countries, basically, the communist movement used these cleavages and these resentments of the local populations, not only in Latin America, around the world, to push further systems. The end result was actually political systems that were even worse that dictatorships of the past. And I'm, of course, now not making any support of the military dictatorships that Latin America suffered in the 1970s. I'm just saying that under the promise of freedom, this regime, backed up by Russia and Cuba, established autocracies that were even worse than the experience of the past. And I think that the main reason is it's a lack of education, the massive propaganda of communism that sounds positive in paper, in the eyes of those who are not well informed, formed. So the most important aspect of developing free societies is actually information. A very well educated society, a society that understand their individual rights, their property rights, and the importance of individual autonomy, will never fall into the trap of communism, which is by far the most perverse political system that not only Latin America, but that humanity has suffered.
[00:12:31] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that really resonates with me. You would not believe what is our biggest audience on YouTube, out of the United. Outside of the United States. It's Venezuela. And we have a video called my name is Venezuela. It's a short three, four minute draw my life video, which we adapted into Spanish, and it has gone viral. I think it's just in the past month, driven 150,000 new subscribers, 80% of which are from within Venezuela. And that is all the more compelling when you consider that a third of the original population is in diaspora. And so videos like that are making the case that these promises of communism, not only are they impractical, but even more importantly, they are immoral. Right? It always requires repression and it requires redistribution, and it requires theft. And that that is fundamentally immoral and incompatible with individual liberty. So tell us a little bit about Daniel Ortega. Who is he? How did he come to power? What were the circumstances of his leaving power? And what do you think his and future trajectory will be?
[00:13:53] Speaker B: Well, the most important part to understand is that Ortega is a dictator, he's a tyrant, he's a criminal against humanity. It's not only my word, it's actually what the UN expert group on human Rights and Nicaragua said on a number of reports. And of course, the United nations cannot necessarily be the best of institutions for dealing with crimes against humanity, as we know. I'm a big critic of some of the work of the UN, but the UN themselves has talked about Daniel Ortega's crimes against humanity in terms of his biography. He came into power in 1979 presiding or being part of a political military movement, the Sandinista party.
And then Daniel Ortega was out of power in 1990 when Violeta Chamorro won the elections. He was part of the opposition for 16 years, and he promised that he had reinvented himself as a democrat. But what happened in 2006 is that he stole the elections again, was able to use massive amount of resources from Libya, from Russia, from China, particularly from Hugo Chavez. And he came back into power in 2007.
Once he was elected again, he reformed the constitution and turned Nicaragua into an autocracy. According to the latest Freedom report by Freedom of the World Report by Freedom House, which is an index that has been reported, the levels of freedom since 1972. Under Ortega, Nicaragua became the country in the world that has lost most freedoms in a ten year period. Today, Nicaragua suffers religious persecution, so Nicaraguans cannot exercise their faith. Nicaraguans have lost their property rights, so there's automatic confiscation of assets and property to any dissidents. Nicaragua is one of five countries that is using deprivation of nationality of dissidents.
Independent media is not allowed in Nicaragua and overseas, 6000 ngo's under Daniel Ortega, including international ngo's such as the Red Cross, for example, have been either shut down or expelled from the country. However, the nicaraguan community, Nicaraguans inside the country, students, academics, small farmers, small entrepreneurs, they continue to struggle for freedom.
[00:16:32] Speaker A: I see we've got a lot of questions that are pouring in, and I promise folks we're going to get to them. But I had one more question. I'm curious. I've been told that Daniel Ortega's wife plays a crucial role in his government. What can you tell us about her?
[00:16:50] Speaker B: Rosanna Murillo, Ortega's wife was not a relevant figure during the first dictatorship of the Sandinistas in the 1980s. In fact, she has always been an extremely controversial figure. Someone that believes in very eccentric religious ideas. I respect everyone's ideas. I don't think that's necessarily something relevant. But the thing is that she is a combination of new age, a combination of extreme hypocrisy, using religious language, and at the same time, someone that argues to be a marxist, a socialist, but is someone that loves wealth. And it's easy to love wealth when you don't produce wealth. It's easy to love luxury when you don't work, and it's not the result of your own individual effort and your ingenuity. So Rosario Murillo became vice president of Nicaragua. So Ortega's number two under Ortega's dictatorship. And now, as they have before, find her. She is the co president of Nicaragua. These are not my words. It's the way that Ortega defines Rosario Murillo.
It's important to clarify that some people argue that Ortega became more perverse under Rosario Murillo's advice. And I disagree. I think that Ortega has always been a violator of human rights. He has always been a tyrant or his wife. Rosaro Murillo has only made him more visible in his perversity and his abuse of power.
[00:18:31] Speaker A: All right, well, let's get to some of these questions. Our regular lock, stock and barrel on YouTube asks, what props up socialism in Latin America? Is it still Cuba or is the support coming from elsewhere? And in Nicaragua in particular, where is the regime getting its resources from? Is it outside sources? Is it drug money?
[00:18:55] Speaker B: I will start with the second part of the question, which is specific on Nicaragua, and then I will tackle the question on socialism more broadly. Well, Nicaragua receives support from China, from Iran, used to receive support from Venezuela and Russia, but that is not substantial in economic terms. And there's a contradiction in the sense that 15% of the population lives in exile. So one in five Nicaraguans now, that is 20% of Nicaraguans. If we take into account, Nicaraguans force into exiles in the past, which compose a substantial number of Nicaraguans abroad. So these nicaramos work very hard in countries like Costa Rica, Spain, the United States. There are 800,000 Nicaraguans in Costa Rican alone. And as part of our tradition, we tend to send money back home. These are called remittances. So remittances are 28% of Nicaragua's GDP, and this is one of the highest in the world. Just to give you a number, remittances are five times our exports of coffee. That used to be our main, our main export. But in addition to coffee, Ortega has become very close to China. And China is exploding. Not nicaraguan natural resources, particularly gold, which is, once again hypocrisy. When democratic governments were ruling, the Sandinistas wouldn't allow, when they were opposition party, they wouldn't allow the democratic governments to pursue the mining industry and now has become our largest industry under China's influence. On the broader question of socialism, I think it's manipulation. You know, socialism might be very appealing for people who are not very well educated. Socialism plays very well for those who have resentment, for those who believe that the big government can solve the problems of a society. And of course, it's a very appealing message. We need more people who understand and also exercise the benefits of free markets under a system of the rule of law and the respect of individual dignity. And we have not seen that in Latin America. We've had a number of autocrats in the past that under the name of capitalism, which once again has been rather chronic capitalism, have done bad governments. And that has created a sort of backlash, opening the doors for the perversities of socialism.
[00:21:30] Speaker A: All right, another regular, my modern Gaul, is asking about that nicaraguan diaspora kind of numbers are we talking about? I understand it's 20% of the nicaraguan population that is now living overseas.
And then he wants to know, are these expatriates, are they living in neighboring countries? Do they live here in the US?
[00:21:56] Speaker B: Nicaragua has had a very hectic, controversial polar rights history, as I said in my opening remarks, which meant that we had a civil war in the 1970s and that created a first nicaraguan diaspora. Then we had another civil war in the 1980s, and it created another diaspora of the highly educated Nicaraguans. So we had a big brain drain in the 1980s during the marxist time. So a lot of intellectuals, a lot of entrepreneurs, people that, whose property was confiscated, they were part of the. Of this diaspora during the 1980s. And then under the Sandinistas second dictatorship, we had another diaspora. So it's a generational issue in terms of where these nicaramos are. The main destination is Costa Rica. It's about 800,000 Nicaraguans. Out of this 800,000, 234,000 arrived in the last four years. So that's the main destination of Nicaraguans. The second one is the United States, and third is Spain. So nowadays, one out of five Nicaraguans lives abroad.
[00:23:08] Speaker A: Wow.
In 2004, you became the youngest secretary general of the nicaraguan defense ministry, where you helped ex combatants become local entrepreneurs and agriculture. How rewarding is it to help former soldiers, quote, beat their swords into plowshares?
[00:23:31] Speaker B: That was the most rewarding experience of my life in both spiritual and intellectual terms.
I was a very young civil servant. So just to clarify, I was never in the military. There was a civilian position that I started in 1997, and eventually I worked my way up into becoming secretary general in charge of a number of areas. And one of them was the reinsertion of former combatants. So we developed economic projects to teach former soldiers from both former Sandinista soldiers and former anti Sandinista soldiers, known as contras. Teach them how to be small farmers, teach them how to be small entrepreneurs. And the big lesson I learned is that when you give people the tools to provide for themselves, when you give them education, when you give them access to capital, both financial capital and social capital, these individuals will cherish their freedom.
The best role of a government in post country reconstruction, in periods in which we need to rebuild a country, is not to replace the power of individuality and the power of creativity, but just give people the tools. I've learned so much from human beings that were leaders during the war. And once they turned their weapons, they didn't know what to do with their lives. But with giving them just enough tools in terms of education, access to knowledge, access to resources, we saw miracles. I'm going to give you one example. I remember the one of the small farms that I helped and coached was one small farm in an area called Tuma la Dalia. A few years ago, I was traveling in Geneva, and I picked up this magazine, and I see this international cocoa festival when this small farm won a major award on the quality of chocolate. And it was exactly the same company that was created many years ago. And now these are companies that are selling their coffee around the world at record prices. They're selling their chocolate. Some of them are working on a number of industries, because they learn that when you teach a man to fish, it's much better than big governments.
[00:25:58] Speaker A: Right? So let's turn back to your very traumatic experience as a dissident and what happened to you, what the regime did to you. In 2018. Ortega cracked down on protesters, and after you testified again, you're back there right now to the UN about this repression. A warranty was issued for your arrest, accusing you of organized crime and financing terrorism. You were then hospitalized after being attacked by government supporters. Can you describe what happened in 2018?
[00:26:42] Speaker B: Most Nicaraguans were fed up with Ortega's abuse of our freedoms, Ortega's massive violations of human rights, and people went out to the streets in massive numbers. By that time, I had been out of government for many, many years. So I was splitting my life, my professional life, between academia.
I love the world of ideas. So I've been for years devoting my time as a university professor, also as an entrepreneur. And one of my social entrepreneurship was a school for non violent activists. And Ortega argued that that school in which we train people on the ideas of freedom, we train people on communication skills, we train people on grassroots organizing.
He argued that these activities, in addition to my international advocacy, was equivalent to being a traitor to the nation. So a case was opened against myself. In 2018, I survived two assassination attempts and a number of arrest warrants, and I went outside of Nicaragua for a few months to recover from my injuries and to continue my international advocacy. But when I went back to Nicaragua, I was placed in house arrest. And then, from those limited conditions, I launched my campaign for president during the nicaraguan primaries. However, in June 2021, Ortega arrested me and other candidates in the primary because he didn't want the nicaraguan opposition to elect a candidate for the November of that year. Elections. The elections in November 2021.
After that, some of the candidates were sent into house arrest, others were sent to prison. In my case, I was sent to a maximum security prison for the next 21 months. I would say that nothing prepared me for such a journey. It is still very difficult for me to speak publicly about this because I was placing in very extreme conditions part of that arrest. The few first months were in solitary confinement. Then I was moved to another cell with a cellmate. But I never had access to a lawyer. I never had access to reading or writing materials. We didn't have any communication, so I was not provided with a phone call with my family. I was not allowed to have any communication with my family.
And a number of mechanisms of torture that has created lasted injuries and that I need to speak more openly about. This is a process like food deprivation, deprivation of light, long periods of interrogation, sometimes as long as 10 hours of interrogations in some occasions.
And I would say that, that Ortega was not able to break my soul. That's what I would say. Ortega was not able to break my soul.
[00:30:01] Speaker A: What kept you going during that time? Was it thoughts of wanting to be back with your family? Or.
[00:30:08] Speaker B: By far, the most important source of strength was the desire to see my family.
When I went back to Nicaragua, knowing that I was going to face almost inevitable arrest, my daughter was five years old. And then the next time I saw her, she was nine.
But the conviction that I would see my wife, Berta Valle, my wife and Berta became a relentless advocate for my freedom. That gave me hope.
The conviction and the commitment to see my daughter, that gave me hope. But most importantly, I would say, say also spirituality. I'm a man of faith. I leave my faith very privately, but I will openly say that I'm a man of faith. And that helped me a lot. But also knowing that I was in the right path, that I did nothing wrong, that I spoke on behalf of the freedoms of the nicaraguan people.
And I made the right decision going back to Nicaragua, despite the fact that I faced arrest that kept me going.
[00:31:18] Speaker A: All right, we've got a few more questions that are popping through here. Alan Turner, another regular for this podcast, asks, the question is how change will actually come. Will change come from within these countries, or does international intervention need to take place?
[00:31:41] Speaker B: I feel that every country is different.
Let me once again mention the freedom of the world report of Freedom House. I think it's one of the most accurate reports and a heartbreaking one, a disappointing one, on the other hand, because it shows 18 consecutive years of declines in freedoms around the world.
As you may remember, a few decades ago, we used to speak about the third wave of democratization. Now we are seeing a wave of authoritarianism around the world. We remember the protests that took place, for example, in the arab world during the so called Arab Springs, and they fell back into autocracy again. So my first point is that we are leaving a moment of democratic regression globally. And in order for this wave of autocracies to be stopped and democracies need to work together, one of the big problems is that autocracies are working together. You see Russia, Iran, China, in some way, Turkey working together, and they don't care about ideology. You see Russia under Vladimir Putin, who has a ultra conservative, almost far right, as it is called, narrative, plays alongside communist Cuba or communist China, and they are close allies to theocratic Iran. They only care about eroding democracy in the west, eroding the role of the United States as a country that has been the leader of the free world. However, those of us who believe in freedom and democracy tend to be isolated. We don't. And of course, organizations such as economic research is probably an exception to the rule. But broadly speaking, those of us who believe in freedom, freedom fighters, we do not have the same level of coordination. So my first reflection would be that we need increasing collaboration among pro democracy activists, freedom fighters, freedom think tanks, intellectuals, governments who believe in democracy. We need to work together. It's a combination of internal resistance and also a more robust international system. It's not an easy answer. It's very complicated. But I remain optimistic. I don't think that tyrannies and dictatorships are here to stay. Let us remember that freedom is not necessarily a natural state of things. Freedom requires hard work. For most of human history, government has been autocratic. So it requires activism, organization, the battle of ideas, to defend freedom. And I think that we will win.
[00:34:42] Speaker A: Well, there's a wonderful quote, in Atlas Shrugged, I think it's Hank Reardon saying to dagny, all of that madness is temporary, it's demented. So it has to defeat itself. You and I will just have to work a little bit longer. That is all. So it's really about, yes, that irrationality, that evil is not creative, it is destructive, and so that it will ultimately fall of its own irrational weight. Now, unfortunately, that can often take a very, very long time. But even as we saw in the Soviet Union that the game couldn't not be kept going. And so eventually you had Eastern Europe and East Germany and Hungary and velvet revolution, all of these countries taking a better turn. But it's, as you say, an ongoing struggle. Okay, we have another question, interesting one, a little bit on a different topic. Kingfisher 21 on YouTube asks, has have the migrant caravans had any impact on Nicaragua as they passed through?
[00:36:02] Speaker B: That's an interesting question. Nicaragua did not tend to migrate massively to the United States. Our natural destination has been Costa Rica.
However, I think that under Ortega's dictatorship, that has changed. Ortea has weaponized migration, irregular migration, undocumented migration, and more than the caravans, which is a typical phenomenon of Guatemala, Salvador, Honduras, less so of Nicaragua. The problem is that Ortega has been opening the nicaraguan territory for undocumented migrants from Africa, from India, from China, that they can come to Nicaragua with no visa.
And once in Nicaragua, they can land on charter flights, they can land on commercial flights to Nicaragua directly. So many years before, for a undocumented person from Africa, from other parts of the world, from Asia, they needed to do a very long journey through Ecuador, Colombia. Now Nicaragua, under Ortega, and intentionally under Ortega, has become a platform to absorb these migrants that are actually stimulated by Ortega. The way I define is that Daniel Ortega is weaponizing migration. He knows how polarized the issue of migration is. He knows how tense the southern border between Mexico and the US is. And he's basically stimulating irregular migration, which I think is the biggest argument, if not the biggest, at least one of the arguments that lead us to believe that Ortega is not a domestic problem only of Nicaraguans. Ortega is a security threat for the United States. Ortega is a security threat for the western hemisphere. In fact, Ortega has, in addition to illegal migration and weaponizing migration against the US, Ortega has also opened Nicaragua territory to establish the largest russian base in Managua, Nicaragua.
[00:38:17] Speaker A: So let me make sure that I'm understanding you correctly.
Ortega is welcoming undocumented migrants without visas to come to Nicaragua, not necessarily to work there, but as sort of a way station onto travel.
[00:38:36] Speaker B: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So during the democratic years, between 19 92,006, then the Democratic Nicaragua, or the Democrat the Nicaragua of the democratic years, which is a very different Nicaragua under Ortega, we work very closely with our democratic partners. We work very closely with the United States in combating terrorism. We work very closely in trying to minimize, as much as we could illegal migration. So when someone, let's say from Iran, from Libya, just to give examples, wanted to come to Nicaragua, our responsibility as member members of the organization american state is to understand are there in Nicaragua as tourists. Were they arriving to Nicaragua as investors? We're arriving as Nicaragua as potential, you know, students. However, Ortega has removed all these are requirements of countries that are typically on the list of countries that are deeply affected by terrorism. Clearly, knowing that most of these people, I do not want to generalize. Most of these people are actually on their path to the United States. So Ortega is an ally with human traffickers. I cannot find any other words. Ortega is working with human traffickers to weaponize migration against the United States.
[00:40:08] Speaker A: All right, here's another question.
It is from Jackson Sinclair on YouTube, also asks, what do you say to socialists? We've all heard these arguments who blame the United States for the problems of Latin America, things like embargoes or what have you.
[00:40:31] Speaker B: Well, there are many arguments to that. First of all, in the embargo, which is a specific case of Cuba, Cuba can buy merchandise from most parts of the world, so the United States is not the only provider of merchandise. And in addition to that, as many of our viewers know, items such as medicine and food, it's clearly as accessible. However, the cuban elite related to the Communist Party is very rich and the average Cuban is starving to death. The average Cuban cannot consume because they don't have access to the minimum requirements of calories. And that has nothing to do with the embargo. And a broader argument to that is that if you look at the socialist countries of the world, there are very few who are actually socialists, because I will say that a lot of people tend to mention that, oh, you know, Norway is socialist or Sweden is socialist or Canada socialist. Sort of an abuse of the term. I mean, let's talk about North Korea. Let's talk about Vietnam or China. I don't see long lists of migrants trying to get into China. However, many people around the world dream to come to the United States. So my big question and my argument is a famous one, by the way, if that, if capitalism is so bad, why so many people from around the world want to come to the United States. I think that the argument is quite obvious.
[00:42:03] Speaker A: I think that is indeed a very good argument. All right, my modern Gaul, back with another question. Wanting to know, how does the military currently in Nicaragua view Ortega? Are they fully on his side, or is there a chance that they may break away and side with the people if there is another push for reform and protest movement there?
[00:42:31] Speaker B: That's actually a very good question on the nicaraguan case.
Many of my colleagues from the opposition movement argued that the military might play some role at some point because some of the military leaders have been arrested.
The co founder of the Nicaragua military, which was founded in 1979, is Ortega's brother, and he is under house arrest for criticizing his brother.
Senior members of the military do not have access to a passport. They cannot travel. So some members of the opposition believe that at some point the military will play a role in replacing Ortega. But having collaborated with the Ministry of defense in trying to reform the military, I am not that hopeful. For one reason.
Over the years that Ortega came back into power, he actually got rid of those military officers who were more independent, who were more professional, and he has replaced them with those who are extremely loyal to him. So I'm not very optimistic that the military could play an important role in replacing Ortega. But it is a black box in terms of predictions. We never know that what could happen. We just saw what just happened in Bangladesh, for example, with the replacement of the regime. And the military indeed played a significant role. So we don't really know what could happen. But if I had to guess, I don't think the military will play a substantial role. I think there are controlled by the regime and they are enjoying the corruption of the Sandinista regime.
[00:44:17] Speaker A: What is the current status of the rule of law in Nicaragua?
[00:44:24] Speaker B: It has been completely demolished. Under Ortega's rule, the constitution was changed in order to remove check and balances.
Supreme Court justices now are party members, which is outrageous. You know, the Supreme Court was one of the few democratization efforts that actually was quite successful at some point. Now there's nothing of the old Supreme Court. Current members of the Supreme Court are all controlled by the Sandinista party. The same thing with electoral authorities. In a nutshell, rule of law has been demolished. The most recent blow to the rule of law has been the reform of the penal code that allows trials in absentia. That means that dissidents in exile can be taken to court even in absence. In a nicaraguan court. Protections of private property have also been reformed to the point that we don't have a private property. And I believe that any country that does not have protections of individual liberty and private property and freedom of speech is basically a tyranny, and that is Nicaragua. There is no rule of law. We are also suffering a new stage of repression against faith based organizations, particularly the Catholic Church. But also protestant denominations are persecuted. Three bishops are in exile. Two of the most distinguished bishops of the Catholic Church were sent to prison. Eleven pastors from different denominations were also sent into prison. And now over 200 religious figures have been expelled from the country.
[00:46:14] Speaker A: Wow. All right, another question here from YouTube asking, how do Nicaraguans feel about places like Argentina and El Salvador?
I'm not sure where that's coming from, but maybe Nicaragua's relationships with other countries in Latin America.
[00:46:36] Speaker B: Well, Ortega is a dictator who has severed his relationship with democracies around the world. And Ortega himself, you know, the dictator has established what I call a network or a club of dictators. So he has become extremely close to Vladimir Putin, to the democratic regime of Iran.
I will give you one example that it's almost ridiculous, but Ortega has shut down consulates in democratic countries around the world, such as the consulates that we had in many cities in the US, in order to open diplomatic relationship with the Taliban of Afghanistan, or to open consulates in Zimbabwe or Burkina Faso or Cameroon. That's how crazy Ortega is.
Even with countries such as Brazil, that under Lula's Ignacio, Lula da Silva's leadership, was sort of a progressive leader. Even with Brazil, Ortega fall into a political conflict by expelling the brazilian ambassador. So that will give you an illustration of how extreme Ortega is. So the relationship with democratic countries, such as, for example, Argentina, are, of course, right now very far. However, the feelings of the general population of the average Nicaragua is, of course, a feeling of admiration to the democratic leaders of the world.
[00:48:13] Speaker A: All right, what can describe for us the current US policy towards Nicaragua? What efforts are being done to try to alleviate the situation there? What would you like to see? How would you like to see that policy rewritten as we turn the page, as Kamala likes to say?
[00:48:34] Speaker B: Well, I will say two things. First of all, the international community, not only the US, and by the way, we're here at the UN General assembly.
Once again, I apologize for this area, but it was a corner that I found that it's a bit quiet. But my first comment is not only about the US, but around the world. The world is not fully prepared to deal with dictators. There are plenty of international treaties that were developed after the second world war.
But dictators just hacked the international system. They laughed at these regulations. They don't really obey resolutions by the UN, by the Organization of American States. So my first reflection is that we need a more robust, a more a vibrant and more brave international system when dealing with these dictators. It's not only a problem of the US. That's my first reflection now on the specific question of us policy. It's one of the very few areas in which there is bipartisan support. I would say that Democrats and Republicans are working together on the issue of Nicaragua. We've had two episodes of release of political prisoners, 222 political prisoners released a year ago when I was released, and 135 political prisoners that were released through the actions of the United States government, working together with Europe and with the government of Guatemala. So this is one clear example of my argument during my opening statement that democracies need to work together. So I feel very grateful that the United States has been working together with european governments, with governments of Latin America, to increase sanctions against Ortega. One of the most recent sanctions is against airlines that are used in the nicaraguan territory to bring undocumented migrants.
I think that the Magnitsky sanctions are also a very powerful tool. We always want to see more. But I'd like to command the bipartisan support that we have been receiving.
[00:50:44] Speaker A: Given the widespread protests that happened in Venezuela after what many viewed as the fraudulent election by the Maduro government, what do you anticipate about the nicaraguan elections in 2026? Do you think there's a chance of meaningful political participation in the current repressive atmosphere?
[00:51:10] Speaker B: Under the current repressive atmosphere, there's no way that we can have free and fair elections in 2026. What we are seeing in Venezuela today, which I think is a very important analogy, is what we saw in Nicaragua in 2016. So it's almost like a movie. And this is something that I share with my venezuelan friends of the democratic opposition, that we saw exactly the same playbook, even more extreme in the sense that in 2016, Daniel Ortega didn't allow many of the opposition leaders to run in the election. We tried in 2021 again, and Ortega went as far as arresting all the candidates because he didn't want to even face anyone. So he ran unopposed.
So I don't see. I don't see any chances of a democratic election or under the current circumstances. Having said that, those of us who believe in freedom and democracy need to see elections as a mechanism that is fundamental for democracy. Let me be very clear with this. I'm not saying that every election. I'm saying that it should be our aspiration to have free and fair elections.
We need to work very hard to establish an electoral system that could be fair, competitive, and that can give opportunities to the members of the opposition to run in a fair election. And that's the message that I've been giving to world leaders here. As member of the nicaraguan opposition, I'm currently a stateless.
I have been offered nationality by around ten other countries in the world. But my message is that I want my Nicaragua nationality. As much as I love the United States. This is a country that is very close to my heart. I am nicaraguan. I want to go back to Nicaragua. I want to help reorganize my community, my people, the grassroots movements to face Ortega under a democratic election that I don't think we will not have in 2026. But we will continue to work very hard for our democratic right to choose who is going to lead Nicaragua. And this is something that I share with my international friends. For those who are thinking about, you know, not voting, if you are in a fake country and you can vote, it is truly a, I would say, a blessing to have the right to vote. Many countries around the world do not have free and fair elections. We cannot exercise our vote.
And that will be, I say, something that I like to share always. Freedom is not free. I need to be protected with the ballots and with transparent free elections.
[00:54:00] Speaker A: Very relevant message for american voters as we head into a presidential election in a few weeks. So thanks for that. Tell us a little bit about your work with the civil society institute.
[00:54:16] Speaker B: Well, the civil society leadership institute was shut down. It was declared illegal by Daniel Ortega. So we reestablished our base in Costa Rica with Nicaraguan Freedom foundation. We are an international foundation with a presence in Costa Rica, the United States, Spain, Brussels, and also in the city of Geneva.
We are trying to organize the nicaraguan opposition in exile. In fact, one of my academic interests. It's thinking about the role of diasporas, the role of dissidents in exile. Because many years ago, when you were a dissident in exile, you were practically dead from a political point of view. Nowadays, with technology, we can continue to exercise influence, we can advocate, we can communicate our ideas, even if we are forced into exile. So, through Nicaraguan Freedom foundation, we promote the ideas of freedom. We organize the democratic opposition in exile.
We have also established a base at the University of Virginia with the end arbitrary detention project. End arbitrary detention is a project that tries to provide legal advice, not only to nicaraguan political prisoners, but political prisoners around the world. There are over 1 million, 1 million people around the world who had been sentenced arbitrarily to prison because of their political ideas.
I want to use this opportunity to thank those institutions, including the US Congress, that has nominated us to the Nobel Peace prize this year for our global work against arbitrary detention, which I think is one of the most severe abuses against dignity and individual freedom.
[00:56:08] Speaker A: Well, we would love to see that. So good luck with that. Any last issues that we didn't get a chance to cover that you want to leave our viewers with?
[00:56:19] Speaker B: Just to thank you so much for this wonderful opportunity. Thank you for this opportunity to chat.
I will insist as a refugee during my childhood and now as an academic in exile, as a leader of the opposition exile of how important freedom in the US is to the world. This is truly the shining city on the hill. Dictators from Russia, from China, from Iran, they want american democracy to fail because they know the moral power of the US. They know the capacity of entrepreneurs in the US. They know the power of american values, which are universal values. So we need to cherish democracy in the US. I don't deal, and I don't like to go into domestic politics, but I love this country. Even though I'm nicaraguan, I love this country almost as second land to me. So those from the american audience that are watching this, let's defend and protect democracy and freedom in the United States. Democracy and freedom for those of you from Europe, because western democracy, which is, I would say, a universal value, is under threat by organized tyrants from China, Iran and Russia. And we need to work together. And once again, thank you so much for this platform, for this very valuable conversation. I hope that we can have this dialogue again. And thank you for accepting to have this interview under this very challenging conditions and very hectic day here in New York.
[00:57:58] Speaker A: It was wonderful, and I do hope that we can continue the conversation. Perhaps we'll get you at our Gulch student conference in Austin next year. We've got a lot of young people coming from Latin America, and it would be great to see you there. So thank you, Felix, and thanks all of you who were watching and who ask such really smart and incisive questions. Of course, if you enjoyed this video or any of the other programming or content that we produce at the Atlas Society, please consider leaving a tip tax deductible donation at atlas society.org. donate and be sure to join us next week when Todd Rose will be our guest on the Atlas Society asks to discuss his book, collective illusions, conformity, complicity, and the science of why we make bad decisions. So make a good one and join us next week. Thank you.
