Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Seventh episode of the Atlas society asks. My name is Jennifer on G Grossman. My friends call me JAG. I'm the CEO of the outlet society. We are the leading nonprofit organization, introducing young people to the ideas of iron Rand in fun, creative ways, such as animated videos, graphic novels, and living history events. Today, we are joined by Dr. Naomi Wolf. Before I then get into introducing Dr. Wolf. I want to remind all of you who are watching us on zoom on Facebook, on Instagram, on Twitter, on LinkedIn, on YouTube. Please use the comment section to type in your questions. If you keep them short, we'll be able to get to as many of them as possible. Dr. Naomi Wolf is a New York times best selling author columnist and political activist. She received her doctorate in, in the English language and literature from Oxford university. Uh, she she's taught at George Washington university and Stony Brook university following the publication of her first book.
Speaker 0 00:01:12 The beauty myth Dr. Wolf became a leading advocate of what's described as third wave feminism. She served as an advisor to the presidential campaigns of bill Clinton and Al gore. She has published 10 books, including the end of America, my letter of warning to a young Patriot, and one of my favorites, outrageous sex censorship and the criminalization of love. Of course, uh, most recently she's become a fierce and consistent critic of COVID lockdowns and mandates, uh, with personal experience in the censorship of such a criticism resulting in her being declared formed by Twitter in June of last year. Dr. Wolf, welcome again. Thanks for joining us. Thanks so much for having me. It's a real honor. So your goal, your work and scholarship has covered so many different areas from feminism to reproductive rights, to surveillance concerns and freedom of speech. Uh, we could do an entire interview on each subject, but to start with the topical, uh, as I mentioned, you've become perhaps, uh, the leading critic of, of lockdowns and mandates. Um, how did your concern it, it it's, you know, now that I've read, uh, some of your more recent books, I can see the connections, but maybe if you would, uh, share with our viewers, when did this, uh, concern begin and what has been,
Speaker 1 00:02:59 Um, the reception to your premises. Thank you. Um, so I th I do see a through line, of course, I, I know, you know, I'll say this, um, for all of my books and all these concerns, the core is basic human Liberty, basic human rights. I mean, in my view, feminism is nothing more than, you know, the gender prism on basic human rights. And the book I wrote in 2008 called the end of America, which I think you mentioned, um, it was the first kind of call to alarm that I issued when I saw the degradation of democracy in our country. And I studied, uh, other moments in history other times in places when, uh, uh, a free society was under attack. And I found that there were 10 things that to tell us, hearing rulers always did, or would be totalitarian rulers, whether they were on the left or the right, they always took the same 10 steps.
Speaker 1 00:04:01 So I, I kind of laid that out in a map. And unfortunately the last 12 years have seen us moving, you know, and it is nonpartisan. I want to stress, you know, moving, you know, Bush advanced yet, you know, uh, Obama advanced it, Trump advanced it, although not as much as people think to his credit, I can't believe I'm saying that, you know, and now we're hurdling under an administration that I voted for, um, not just toward the abyss, but I've been starting to say, we're, we're over the abyss. The KU has, has happened in, in, in many ways. And one of the things I point out in the end of America is that people have a misconception about how democracies topple, you know, you've seen a lot of movies. They think it's like, you know, columns, goose, stepping in the streets and, or, you know, Chinaman square, but most, uh, free societies that fell, fell gradually and incrementally.
Speaker 1 00:04:58 And so now we've got all around us, you know, some states that are sort of under emergency law, actually 47 states are under emergency law, believe it or not, but some states where you can't, I just had an email from someone saying in Eugene, Oregon, there were security police in a farmer's market to make sure you were wearing your mask properly. Right? Some states where citizens literally cannot breathe the way they want to. In other states like Florida, there's still kind of a constitutional Republic as, as we remember it from before 2020. Um, so that's the through line. Every one of these books has talked about personal Liberty and human rights. I guess the thing that astonishes me about this particular assault, you know, not just, I'm not just going to say assault cause it's over right. This murder of human rights. I mean, it's over, it's not like the sand of the battle, but you know, the coup is taking place.
Speaker 1 00:05:51 As I've said, what amazes me is that as a feminist, I can't believe how many people on my side of the aisle, my tribe, you know, people I've been around my whole life who are so consistent. And I'm talking about the elite left, obviously, you know, who so consistent on equality for, you know, marriage equality, LGBTQ rights, racially quality. Um, so right on about, you know, organic food. So aware of how big pharma can be bad when it comes to, you know, Silicon breast implants or, you know, hysterectomies that are unnecessary or, or, you know, the wrong dose of hormones, birth control pills. So many sophisticated people are lining up to create a discrimination society. That is pretty much exactly like other discrimination societies that they boycotted in their college years in South Africa. Other places there's so much like Jim Crow laws so much like being a Jew in Vichy, France, you know, like France, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 00:06:56 There's like no distinction. And so I guess that's a long way of saying the through line is human Liberty and I'm, I'm kind of shocked. I feel like I, I haven't changed. I've been saying the same things absolutely consistently for 12, you know, for 35 years releases, I wrote my first book and I'm kind of astonished that I'm the people I'm talking to these days are, you know, the Atlas society it's not even ran, was evil. Um, you know, conservatives libertarians, I'm on Fox news. This is not like I respect it and I love it. And I'm glad to talk to whoever will talk to me about freedom, but I'm astonished to be standing in exactly the same place as the world has changed around me.
Speaker 0 00:07:41 Well, uh, you know, we're always looking for silver linings and if there is a silver lining in all of this, if we could get the great feminist scholar and critic, not Dr. Naomi Wolf to give Iran another look as a possible, uh, feminist icon, deserving of respect for breaking a whole bunch of, of norms and celebrating, uh, strong, sexually liberated, uh, women and female, um, business women in her, in her novels. And that will be at least something to be thankful.
Speaker 1 00:08:16 No, I'll have to do that now.
Speaker 0 00:08:20 And I will, I can, I can assist. So, uh, it is curious, I mean, because I think that I don't want to get too off the beaten path here, but, um, you know, when you look at some things that cause mania, you know, that cause like this seemingly exaggerated response and iron Rand is, is one of them. Um, and as a, a Jewish refugee who came to America with nothing and made something of herself, um, how it's become that she's, she's like a lightening rod, pretty particularly for the, for the left. Uh, but anyway, for another discussion. Um, so, but digging into to that, you know, pointing out that through line in, in your work, finding yourself, you know, surprised to be, uh, talking among, you know, the Geoffrey Tuckers and, and, uh, other libertarians of, of the world. Um, you know, you, you are a lifelong Democrat.
Speaker 0 00:09:27 I, I was a Democrat until, uh, until I went to college actually. Um, you've been an advisor to two democratic presidential candidates. Why do you think that, you know, your friends and your allies and your colleagues or former colleagues, um, and looking now at democratic governors who have opted for some of these most severe aggressive punishing, lockdowns and mandates, is it just politics? Uh, you know, if, if it had been, the other side would get, if Trump had been for, for lockdowns, would Democrats have been for, uh, for more, you know, freedom or is there maybe something, uh, deeper in the, the underlying principles of the two major parties that have led to different stances when it comes to these non-pharmaceutical interventions?
Speaker 1 00:10:27 Great question. Um, just to note, I didn't advise two presidential candidates. I advised one presidential candidate in one campaign. Okay. So it was not an advisor to president Clinton directly. Um, okay. So globally, right? Messy JAG. Is that what I can call you? Yeah. Okay. Thank you globally. It is not a partisan issue and people have to see that, um, there's a Metta nation, state script, and more and more of it is being revealed by a year ago. That sounded like a conspiracy theory, but it's kind of fully documented and we've been tracking the relationships that are, uh, operating really above the level of nation states. Um, so you see the Boris Johnson is locking everyone down and suppressing liberties in the cradle of Liberty. You know, the United Kingdom on one of the cradles of Liberty you see in France, my colleague, who's a centrist, allegedly he's saying my job is to, you know, piss them, sorry, infuriate I'll use that euphemism the unvaccinated to the end, whenever that means quite terrifying.
Speaker 1 00:11:34 And if you're not vaccinated, you can't get on a long distance train in France. Um, in Italy, uh, there are severe lockdowns in Austria and Colin Merkel is, you know, wasn't, uh, uh, she's not in alignment with left or right in the United States and Canada, you know, they are, they are creating concentration. I mean, they're creating detention centers in Canada. People, um, are, are saying that unvaccinated people, leaders are seeing them backstage people shouldn't get healthcare. Uh, you see this madness in country, after country, in spite of what is nominally, the, um, you know, the party politics, the ideology and the heartbreaking thing. I'm so many people I'm kind of in alignment with these days for my whole adult life, I w was told, were just beyond heinous. What you're seeing in country after country is people at Filipo in France or Nigel frosh in Britain, you know, populists are the only ones who nationalist populists.
Speaker 1 00:12:38 They're the ones saying this is not okay. You know, uh, people you you'd think would be standing up for human Liberty or are silent. And it, and it's, it's down to these grassroots populous. I mean, people like Steve Bannon, I'm talking to Steve Bannon every week. You know, I thought I don't agree with him on a lot of policy outcomes a lot. Right. But bizarrely, or, or maybe transcendentally, there's this kind of Venn diagram happening around the world, which is shaking out what we thought were the labels that mattered and leaving only, do you want Liberty or UK with Sarepta? Um, or are you supporting serfdom? So I just wanted to say that that said in the United States, there is a very, very horrific situation. Um, I don't think it will be, I don't think we're going to be out of the woods. If the Democrats get upended in the midterms, I'm not a Republican, I'm an independent at this point, but the same thing could happen to Republicans that has happened to Democrats.
Speaker 1 00:13:40 And I'll get to that in a minute, but right now in the United States, it is true. And we've again, mapped this data, um, that there is, uh, a really unholy 360 degree Alliance between the democratic party, the DNC and big tech, um, and big tech money and time. And so, and a lot of this money is flowing into, uh, nonprofits. And this is kind of a loophole that hasn't really been examined or identified. And from the nonprofits it's flowing to, uh, boards of health, it's blown to school boards and it's flowing to, um, governors and, and, and elected officials. Um, and it's it, they've, these nonprofits have very benign sounding names like, you know, CSTE, the, you know, commission for state and territorial epidemiologists. It's a nonprofit, that's managing CDC data to serve the agenda of the vitamin restoration, which is serving the agenda of, you know, Microsoft and big tech and intellectual ventures, which has kind of Silicon valley kind of stranglehold of investment in technology.
Speaker 1 00:14:52 You've got Google harvesting, COVID, um, test login data. You've got, uh, Amazon and Microsoft, uh, owning the management of the COVID dashboards, which I run a tech company. Um, this has been driving me crazy, all those dashboards that all this policy is based on. They're scaring everyone to death. They're on the front page of the New York times. No one gets to see that raw data. And when I had leaked to me, the raw data for the Johns Hopkins dashboard, which everyone is referencing, um, and which is funded by Bloomberg, who's an investor, you know, who's who invests, right? It's, uh, only six states where reporting. So it's, it's flawed data or it's incomplete data. I mean, I've deconstructed all the dashboards again, not to go down a rabbit hole, but when you find is a complete circle in which the management of the data related to the pandemic is in the hands of big tech and big tech is aligning, as you see from the email from mark Zuckerberg to Dr.
Speaker 1 00:15:57 Fowchee, right about gee let's invest in backseats, right? Um, in a complete 360 degree circle, then you've got Microsoft building and Salesforce building the vaccine passports, right. Or he would Packard in case of New York state, the Excelsior vaccine passport. And that, and I'm a tech CEO. All that data is more valuable than gold or then oil and whoever controls all that data is really going to be more powerful than any nation state, more powerful than the human, more powerful than the who. Right. So what we see as these kind of circles of embeddedness, um, and of course, all of this serves China or China benefits in ways that I don't have to go into, but, uh, many distinguished people like Michael Spalding, I'm sorry, Michael singer and general Spalding have documented how the CCP has invested in kind of surrounding art influenced centers like Hollywood and sports teams and universities with their influence.
Speaker 1 00:17:00 So that affects messaging. You're seeing more and more messaging. That's confusing and disorienting Americans write about how America is bad or American values are that, or Western values are bad or freedom is bad. Um, and the, you know, and, and messages that are, that my people are absorbing with great alacrity in a way that's terrifying that the individual is nothing. You know, you have to sacrifice your body and your destiny and your future to the collective. And if you don't, you get shunned in this very kind of CCP style, Stalinist style, you know, pre Nazi style sort of way. So that's the circle. And I just want to give one tiny little new piece of evidence shocking, right? This is my, um, I invested in, uh, like food stocks, right? Like my amalgamated bank it's right on bank. And they have this kind of fossil fuel free portfolio.
Speaker 1 00:17:55 And I thought, well, I want to be a good citizen of the planet. So what we're seeing is social justice being kind of merged into all these corporate, um, missions. And so this says you, we're only going to invest. We're not going to invest in companies that provide significant financial support to socially conservative institutions. They lump that in with, we won't invest in animal cruelty. We won't invest in, you know, pollution. We won't invest in child labor, supporting conservative institutions is one of the things that, uh, is, is leading a, a, you know, big established bank, like amalgamated to move their money, um, uh, portfolio, uh, like, uh, Dawson, which is a all cap global ETF to, to shun, you know, to, to create almost a boycott of conservative ideas. And you, you see this across the board in institution, after institution. So that's my quick Roundup.
Speaker 1 00:18:51 It's an unholy Alliance that has bought the Democrats and it's coming down from the top and at a state level, I'm in touch with many state legislators because of my work on daily cloud. And they say like, you know, we used to be able to work with our democratic colleagues. They were very reasonable. And now it's almost like they're scared they can't deviate. And there's vast sums. Like, and the last thing I'll say is people are baffled by the rigidity with which school boards are torturing American children with like masking and, you know, excluding them from sports. If they're not vaccinated, even if there's no law in place or no regulation in that state. And, uh, millions in the case of a kabod over $2 million is going from legislation by administration passed to school boards in order, they only get the money if they stick to the COVID protocols. And so there there's a destruction of our children, um, which I think is very intentional, as well as destruction of other institutions, uh, in a way that ultimately is going to serve big tech and serve our adversary, the CCP.
Speaker 0 00:19:58 So just to return to, to that, um, investment notification that you had received. So this was a fund that, um, you wanted to make sure you didn't want to be investing in fossil fuel companies.
Speaker 1 00:20:14 That's all it's called fossil fuel free.
Speaker 0 00:20:17 And it's saying that it will also not be investing in companies that may be supporting conservative
Speaker 1 00:20:24 Institutions. Correct.
Speaker 0 00:20:26 Wow.
Speaker 1 00:20:27 Okay. Provide significant financial support to socially conservative institutions, which has a very broad category that could be you or
Speaker 0 00:20:37 The objective, not conservative, but like, you know, in somebody's, uh, estimation where we're not on, on the left.
Speaker 1 00:20:45 So no, but
Speaker 0 00:20:48 She said that we were receiving large corporate donations, but, um, we're not so
Speaker 1 00:20:54 Well, I guess what I'm trying to say is this is what the Nazi's did. Right? They added the medical step is what the Nazis did. They, they flowed all the power and all the money to institutions that aligned with their ideology and impoverished and marginalized, everyone who did it. And so what this sort of thing does, and I'm seeing it in legislation, which I read week by week as CEO of daily cloud, is all this money is flowing to like the green new deal blew my mind. I thought I wanted to vote for it. It flows billions in different iterations to frontline communities, which are defined as democratic constituencies basically, and never in America have we said, oh, you're a person of color. We're gonna, you know, discriminate in favor of you. That's always been illegal, just like discriminating against people of color has been illegal since, since 1964, since the civil rights act. So there's this massive kind of, um, you know, I'm just going to see a plan because I've worked in politics, the highest levels, and this is a game plan to direct, you know, billions and billions from government and the private sector right toward, uh, the democratic party's own constituency. And then the democratic party is doing things that serve our adversaries and the sort of big tech to our
Speaker 0 00:22:20 You've mentioned a daily clout. Um, we'd love to hear more about what it is, uh, and how it can provide people who feel, you know, powerless who, who feel that they they're frustrated, but they don't know what to do. Um, you have, uh, various campaigns. If I understand for political action, including ones designed to push back against, for example, school closures are locked down. So what's your model and how can people get involved?
Speaker 1 00:22:53 Thank you so much for asking. So I started daily cloud. I co-founded it because I saw how people were being excluded from, uh, the, the process of passing drafting and passing legislation. Um, and I knew the solution had to be digital. So it's a digital platform that lets anyone draft a bill and pass the bill. But we also have this beautiful piece of technology. It's a legislative database called bill cam, which has every state and federal bill. And you can find any state or federal bill. Like if you want to know about vaccine passports, you can do a search and boom, you've got all the, you know, you've got a transparent view of all the vaccine, passport legislation, state, and federal, but it's also interactive. You can send any of those bill camps. We call them through social media and you can tweak the bill sponsor the rep.
Speaker 1 00:23:46 You can vote, you know, and show your support or opposition. Um, and this has really moved the dial. Uh, it ends legislation in smoke-filled rooms. Um, and it also lets people inform each other very transparently. What's in a bill. You know, so many of them are vast and written to confuse people. And this way, you know, we can, we, we start with an easy to follow blog. Like we're very much like you in explaining complicated things in easy to follow blogs and videos and infographics, focus, focuses, legislation and democracy. And so we can say, okay, they're saying this healthcare bill covers breast cancer screenings, but on page 60, you see that it doesn't, and then people can send the actual bill through social media and take a look for themselves. Um, it's so empowering. I could mention any number of times this has changed outcomes, but specifically today is very important.
Speaker 1 00:24:44 Um, we at daily cloud, because we read the bills, we read the regulations, we notify people that there was a meeting in Washington state in which they were the health board, the board of health was discussing a regulation that would, that does give boards of health, basically police forces and the right to quarantine, entertain people. If they've been exposed to a contagious disease, right in indefinitely, uh, at pending a court order, right? The, the pur and the presents to behave while they're in detention, um, and you know, without charge or trial. Uh, and so this is such a recipe for catastrophic outcomes in the militarization of Washington state, because whenever societies have these powers, people covet their neighbors land, or people want to drive their competitors in bankruptcy. And they're like, oh, you know, John was exposed to a contagious disease. You don't have to put them in detention.
Speaker 1 00:25:44 So we alerted people and we read the regulation, which is boring, but, you know, we've gotten really good at it. And, you know, Washington state was saying, oh, there's misinformation on social media. A thousand percent definitely may see 100 0 7, 0 thousand percent gives the board of health police powers. And if the police don't go along, it's a crime and a thousand percent, it was correct. So we weren't people. And there was such an outcry. And I announced it on the war room. There was such an outcry that Washington state claimed they were backing off and not, uh, not reviewing that regulation, but this is like the, you know, eternal vigilance is the price of Liberty. We have to do this. So the other thing I'm going to share is that bill cam has, is now launching next week, a, basically a Facebook competitor, um, where you can organize called campaigns where you can organize your own campaign, invite people to be part of your campaign. You can embed your bill, it's legislative into your campaign and you can lobby. Um, and, and you don't need a million dollars to be a lobbyist or to be a, a grassroots political or social review now.
Speaker 0 00:26:56 So we go to, uh, just Google daily cloud, or, you know, w we'll also put the, the website in, uh, in the various comment streams and get a, get an account and choose a campaign. Is that how it works?
Speaker 1 00:27:12 So right now campaigns launches on the 15th, but right now a daily cloud, you can, you know, bill cam is free. You can just sign up as a subscriber on daily cloud.io and start, you know, start using no camp. You can find anything on bill cam. You can send those bills through social media and in a week, you should be able to start your own campaigns account. So there's a lot to do already. And I just want to mention one of the most important campaigns we've done, um, in the last six months is the five freedoms campaign at the request of our users. And this was bought, we hired a lawyer and we drafted five model bills, uh, no masks mandates, no vaccine passports, open schools now, uh, freedom of assembly, and to end emergency law and due to the mobilization of our users and, and others, you know, grabbing those model bills, um, and our networking with state legislators. And we literally go to New Hampshire to Michigan, to, uh, Oregon to be there at the, at the state legislative session with our little video camera. Uh, so they know we're watching, right. Um, 33 states have passed no vaccine mandate legislation. And it was barely a thing when we started warning people about it in April of last year.
Speaker 0 00:28:33 So we have mentioned, uh, some possible silver linings, and you've talked about how, um, some of these policies set D dangerous precedents, which could be used in, you know, all kinds of future crises. Um, but are there ways in which the current crisis has brought people together across partisan lines? And we talked about, unfortunately that there is a bit of a partisan divide on this, but, um, your, your perspective on coalition building, I know that this began with, uh, your involvement in a group. I think it was in New York, um, meeting with nuns and other people across, uh, the aisle on the abortion issue. And that kind of, um, helped you to maybe think about them differently. Maybe not think about the issue differently, but find common ground and, uh, and craft, um, you know, some, some kind of positions that you could both agree on. So is that possible for, for, for
Speaker 1 00:29:40 This issue? Definitely think, sorry. I definitely think there's, um, a massive awakening of some kind going on right now. There was also a massive hypnosis going on at the same time, depending on who you're talking to. Um, and I do see a big realignment, uh, and I hope that what comes out of it leaves party labels can't really leave them behind, but keeps them almost in quotation marks. Um, because, you know, as having been on the inside, those labels just serve to protect both sides who are insiders, doling out stuff to their respective, you know, cronies, um, and they serve to distract people. I mean, one, one thing I absolutely learned as a political insider is that the hot button issues that were directed to like, you know, LGB like, like trans issues, right. Or, or abortion rights, or, you know, that should there be Santa, you know, in a public setting, these are all like they're worth discussing, of course, but they're all really tangential to the bills that we read week after week in which, which are bipartisan bills quietly going through in which billions of dollars are being just stolen from the American people siphoned off by both sides and handed out their respective donors or supporters.
Speaker 1 00:31:18 Um, so I, I do think we are in for grassroots awakening that is hopefully non-partisan, or that where's partisan should very lightly. I hope but more urgently. I think we are going to have to literally we remake some institutions because they're corrupt all the way through, I mean, gates money and pharma money literally bought the media. You know, the, the, the, when I was de platformed, it seems like a Twitter spokesperson went to many major news outlets, gave them out of context or false statements attributed to me, and they all ran it and, and we're, we're not accountable and they couldn't be accountable because as the Columbia journalism review has, has shown, you know, each of them has accepted from the BBC to NPR, to guardian millions of dollars in, in gates funding for COVID education. So that leads to certain kinds of coverage. They're not free to say the pandemic is over right.
Speaker 1 00:32:23 Or Omicron is, is really not that serious says the south African minister of health. Um, so yes, I do think we're in a time when we are going to have to, after this is torn down from top to bottom and the crushed and the criminals, you know, tried and sent to prison, presumably, um, we're going to have to remake technology. Uh, and that's why I'm really excited about platforms like getter platforms, like, you know, not telegram cause they have a fake family wealth accounts if you're not talking to me about, but, um, you know, gab rumble and all of these usurpers to the big three, right? That's so important, but I'm also excited about all of the people writing sub-steps on people, writing blogs on people, doing their own, making their own media. Um, but lastly, we can't have a Renaissance till people understand how important human space is.
Speaker 1 00:33:22 And what I mean is we've been encouraged by big tech and certainly in a lock lockdowns to be scared of gathering in human spaces, but also to believe technology is better than human, what humans can do by themselves. But actually, and I'm speaking as a tech CEO, human capabilities are superior in ways that they don't want you to know. And so what I mean is when people gather in a room at a dinner party, um, that is a super Sonic way to communicate education in a way that can't be hacked. You know, whereas to my astonishment state legislatures are meeting on zoom or Microsoft, you know, completely feeding every single item on the agenda to CCP or to Microsoft, right. Um, when you gather in a town hall, you can inform each other in a much more nuanced and multi-variant way than you can in a zoom town hall, right.
Speaker 1 00:34:21 Where the moderator can restrict what you're doing. Um, and also people get hardened, you know, in ways that are almost metaphysical or that we can't really explain by being in human spaces, um, feeling human warmth and creating those friendships. So I really, you know, one thing we're starting on on daily cloud is, um, we're going to have meetups where people can just gather in human spaces and recreate human community, you know, playdates potlucks for, for Lord's sake, you know, and sort of reprieve the human because when people assemble and history shows this, um, tyrants, uh, tremble.
Speaker 0 00:35:00 So I love with your permission, Dr. Wolf, to turn to your career as a feminist, you, as I mentioned, have been described as the leading spokeswoman of third wave feminism, um, since the publication of, uh, the beauty myth myth, your first book. So for our viewers, what, what is third wave feminism? And would you embrace that title?
Speaker 1 00:35:28 Yeah, sure. Um, I, yeah, I'm proud of having been part of that conversation. Um, third-wave feminism very briefly. I made up a phrase and, um, another writer made up with the phrase at about the same time. So I guess that just goes to show that sometimes movements that are ready to happen, just meet up, you know, meta getting to say it's happening for it to happen. But, um, second wave feminism was my mother's generation, which was sort of, you know, Betty for Dan, uh, Gloria Steinem, um, the seventies, the great kind of posts, you know, feminine mystique uprising of mostly middle-class upper middle-class, mostly white women. And that was a weakness movement. Um, but it was a very important movement and it was responsible for, you know, all the great benchmarks title, nine, title seven, uh co-education um, women entering professions, uh, and, and concepts that are critical.
Speaker 1 00:36:34 Like, you know, you shouldn't rape your wife or you shouldn't beat your wife or, uh, you know, consent is good. Um, and reproductive rights, you know, whatever you think about them. Um, so there was this kind of latent or dormant period in the eighties where nothing much was happening and, and gender issues were being kind of sidelined. And that happens, secretly women are always told that they're, they don't really have any problems and their problems are not important. They can stop worrying about it now. Um, but I wrote the beauty myth in the early nineties, and I basically was talking about how ideals of beauty, this seems like such a golden age of not that serious problem problems serious, but, um, you know, the ideals of beauty were restricting women of my generation, uh, and keeping us from being as empowered as we could be, especially with eating disorders, which really was quite serious.
Speaker 1 00:37:29 Um, so yeah, that's third wave feminism. And it was, I also did a bit of a, you know, annoyed daughters' critique of second wave feminism because it was kind of joyless at that point and very judgmental, the things that have come back in the left or the vengeance. Right. But you know, very judgmental about sexual choices. You weren't supposed to like fashion, you weren't supposed to, you know, being heterosexual wasn't okay. Um, you know, it was very, uh, it had developed litmus tests. Like you have to be pro-choice, you have to be anti-capitalist, you have to be a vegetarian, you know, and, and really feminism is, you know, this great essential, um, extension of, you know, the great movement for human rights, Liberty from the enlightenment on, you know, from Mary Wollstonecraft on. So I wanted to kind of, you know, shun or get rid of the things that were weighing the, the movement down or the language down and, and kind of open it up and, and especially just let women and men say, I'm going to define this for myself. I'm going to live my life before. Like maybe I've always been libertarian.
Speaker 0 00:38:42 I'm an objectivist. I think you're more of an objective that's, that's, that's my, that's my, uh, wager, um, and speaking of objectivism. So at the Atlas society, we promote, um, particular kind of brand of objectivism open objectivism. And, uh, the overriding emphasis emphasis is on the individual, uh, individual thought individual choice, individual action. So I was accordingly struck by, uh, one line of criticism against your work over the years, uh, which was that in the words of one critic of the new Republic, your quote, most dramatic exportations are appeals to the individual, not society. This particular critic accuses you of waxing positively neoliberal in your contention that, uh, the real problem is our lack of choice. In the words of the critic, Milton Friedman could not have said it better himself now to some on the left, of course, that might seem like a terrible a slur that kind of comparison, but in our community, it would, uh, you might wear it as a badge of honor. So what, what do you make of that criticism of your being, uh, not sufficiently collectivist and, uh, more individualistic in your, your work?
Speaker 1 00:40:11 Well, first I'd want to say, I've never been talking about consumer choice, right? Um, that's not my priority. Uh, and I do think it's important. I think there's, you know, stupidity on those sides, right. I think it's important for like, especially in the eighties, there was this really dumb brand of post-feminist and it was called that kind of predicated itself on the notion that everything and people, you know, libertarians all I'll argue this with them, right. Like I argue with my husband because he's more libertarian than I am about these things that, you know, oh, you, you can do it all yourself. And it's all about individual responsibility. I agree with a lot of that, but I also think that systemic analysis of racism, gender discrimination, you know, antisemitism, historical hurdles, uh, right now anti-vaccination discrimination are really important to, to just not be dumb about what is possible with individual responsibility and what isn't.
Speaker 1 00:41:18 Um, I mean, that's why I'm always so surprised that libertarians are kind of silent on abortion rights because I don't like abortion. And I wrote a very heartfelt essay called our bodies, our souls about my struggles around the ethics of abortion. But you know, it, if you don't see that not being able to control your production means women have no control over their futures. You are just not smart enough, you know, honestly. So, you know, I do, I think my books look at that, always that kind of, what is the individual and what kind of collective analysis do we need that said, I, you know, we're in a very dire moment in history where I'm going to say, I've always been kind of criticizing free markets and capitalism for their accesses and, and shining a light on, you know, great things like Sweden's healthcare system, which is great.
Speaker 1 00:42:15 But right now, looking at history and where we are, there is more danger to it, to women, to individuals, to children from, uh, collectivist government, uh, or a collectivist corporatocracy merging with government, which is the definition of fascism. Then from, you know, the most rampant, individualism and free market, you could conceive of it, you know, with all of its harms and excesses, the women, women are safer, you know, when they get to make their individual choices, then when a government decides that they can only keep their job, if they're injected with, uh, an experimental substance, right. Women are safer with all the risks and dangers of unfettered, capitalism, human rights, protect us individualism post-enlightenment liberal values. I mean, capital L classical liberal humanistic Democrat values protect us more than any totalitarian or socialist regime that anyone has ever come up with with the best intention stated in the world.
Speaker 0 00:43:19 Well, I think libertarians, uh, may be silent on abortion because there are probably, uh, some libertarians that are more, um, emphatic on protecting the right of the mother to have agency over her, uh, body. And then there were some libertarians on the other side, but Objectivists, again, this is why I think you were, you're going to be a future. Objectivists an iron Rand in particular was anything but silent on reproductive rights. And if anything, her position, um, very outspoken, uh, on reproductive rights and on a woman's right, is that in her atheism can be a, uh, a bit of a stumbling block when I'm trying to reach out to conservative students. Uh, and so I do sort of a take what you like and, and leave, leave the rest. But, um, now I just want to return to another one of your, uh, your most recent book, actually outrageous sex censorship and the criminalization of love, um, published in 2019. I understand it grew out of, uh, your doctoral thesis on John Addington Simmons. Um, I now know who was Simmons, um, but maybe if you could just tell our viewers and what sparked your interest in him and, and, um, your research on the subject.
Speaker 1 00:44:54 Thank you. This is actually my favorite of my books, and I hope everyone reads it because this was a great, great, uh, historical figure that history has largely erased. So John Addington Simmons, um, was probably the first LGBTQ rights activist and spokesperson in Britain or in English, I should say because he was also admired in America. And, um, he was, uh, mid 19th century, uh, upper middle-class guy, uh, who wanted to spend his life, you know, as a, as a fellow at Oxford and as a poet and as a critic. But his sexuality quickly, um, was turned against him in a highly homophobic time and place and in a place where, in spite of a lot of attacks and spheres and controversy in the book, he note, I am right. There was a death penalty for sodomy, uh, until 1862 in Britain. Um, and, uh, that's just absolutely the case.
Speaker 1 00:45:57 So he was terrified of what would happen if he lived out his life, even in a closet away in Britain. So he exiled himself to Switzerland. He whispered he was tuberculosis, that was healthier for him. And he kind of found his, his, you know, his great love of his life in Venice. By this time he was a married man. He had four daughters, he was a respected critic, you know, so he lives is completely do a life in which he kept. I mean, it's so fascinating for a writer to see what happened to him. He kept all of his homoerotic poetry in a locked box in his study. And at one point his best friend who was also gay, what we would call gay, you know, they went to the river Avon and threw away the key, right. But they didn't throw away the documents because these were too precious to him.
Speaker 1 00:46:44 So his whole life, which was short, right, he died young of tuberculosis. He keeps, he tried to articulate the beauty of love between men. You know, he's a great romantic, and he tried to articulate and he did secret manifestors that he wrote a problem with modern ethics were problem with modern ethics. And, um, and, and it was like forbidden illegal to pass around. He articulated the first really defense of, you know, the right of homosexuals to live, like anyone else protected by the law instead of persecuted by the law. Um, and the last thing I'll say is that, uh, so moving Walt Whitman, who was a lot kind of, he's living in a more free place in time, the United States, uh, didn't have laws of some kind against sodomy. Um, he found leaves of grass as young man. And that speaks very poetically of same-sex love between men. And so Whitman was like this north star for him, you know, his whole career. And they had this beautiful epistolary relationship though. Of course they never met. Um, and so it's really about this love between Whitman and Simmons. And then finally, the other unbelievable thing about Simmons is that he kept a kind of secret memoir that told the truth about his life completely Frank modern stark detail, but he also kept that embargo not to be opened until everyone he knew was dead. And he embedded in here,
Speaker 0 00:48:18 The results of the research on the vaccines
Speaker 1 00:48:22 Exactly 75 years, he embedded in that memoir, a code that his posture was editor could put together to tell the story of his great love, which is, um, for this man, Angela, who was Otto, a very handsome gondolier. Um, so it's like this beautiful faith that someday the world would catch up with him. And there would be readers that would want to read that story and publishers who would want to publish it. So he's just such an amazing kind of exemplar to me of faith in the future that you don't know what your activism will do in your own lifetime, but he really brought about the world that we have today in terms of equal rights for, for people around sexual orientation in many Western countries.
Speaker 0 00:49:06 Okay. Well, I have other questions for you, as I know, I, I gave you a heads up on some of them, but I'm going to get into big, big trouble with our audience here since we've got a lot of questions. So let's try to get to a few, we have really just, uh, 11 minutes left, but, um, mark zinger asks Dr. Wolf. Uh, can you please speak to the role of the security state in America? It's in partnership with the mainstream media, uh, see who become contributors on MSNBC, CNN, uh, alone raises serious questions about freedom.
Speaker 1 00:49:47 Yeah, I mean, he's right. I think I pretty much summarized my best analysis early in our talk, but it extends to what experts are interviewed on these pharma outlets, MSNBC and CNN, and in the New York times. Um, my husband Brian is she is a very killer researcher and a private detective. And he's found in virtually every case that the, you know, the mainstream commentators like Dr. Hotez Leanna, when they, they all are conflicted. You know, if you go back two steps there, there's money flowing to them. There's talking points and what's heartbreaking. The talking points are aligned with the talking points of our CDC. And, you know, even our government spokespeople have talked, we felt she, and, you know, Dr. Collins before he left. So the doctors that I'm in touch with who are these kind of very brave dissident doctors and epidemiologists like the great Barrington declaration signatories, um, but some of those doctors refer to the CDC as, as regulatory capture that the institutions are supposed to protect us are hostage to, um, to pharma.
Speaker 1 00:51:03 And, and by the same token, the news outlets are hostage to pharma, um, and hostage to an end kind of embedded with, with the Democrats. This isn't just a democratic problem, by the way, when Bush was in power, I would go into Fox news and see white house talking points on people's screens. Um, so now you're seeing, you know, white house talking points with different administration on people's screens with different news outlets. So this is why we have to pass laws to clean this up, um, in, I believe 2012, the law protecting Americans from being propagandized, um, died. And so the flood gates were open for propagandizing us. We need, when I say we need to rebuild institutions, we also need to have, you know, laws, compelling disclosure of conflicts, of interest for people who talk to the media and, and certainly laws, keeping elected officials from investing, um, in institutions that they are, uh, you know, supporting through policy. But she used to be the case when I was a white house spouse. I don't really understand what change. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:52:08 Uh, Gabrielle Avin Tav on Instagram, uh, asks, has social media made things better or worse for keeping governments accountable.
Speaker 1 00:52:18 That is a great question. I'm unbalanced, I'd say better, uh, which is why Twitter and, and YouTube have been so determined to censor people, um, because it's such an empowering medium and paradoxically during the lockdown, uh, you know, people were driven to do exactly what we're doing and new conversations were had, and people were, you know, hungrily exchanging information. So digital technologies can certainly enslave us and strip us of democratic access. And I've talked about some ways, but on balance, social media has let people from all walks of life, get educated well by primary sources and ask good questions.
Speaker 0 00:53:07 I'm in Briar on Twitter asks, are you surprised with the speed with which the Biden administration has shifted towards authoritarianism?
Speaker 1 00:53:18 Well, it's such a painful question. I am surprised that this administration did that, even though my husband was warning me, you know, they've got ties to China, they've got ties to China, don't do it, don't do it. I'm like, I cannot, I cannot vote for the other guy. And we can talk about why, you know, it's important because I get asked this all the time. People say, you know, you sound like a Republican, which makes me sad. I think I sound like an American, but, um, nothing wrong with Republicans, but I like to think the constitution has no party, but president Trump spoke about women in a way that I, as a survivor could not, I just couldn't vote for someone who could talk that way about sexual assault. And if we're all looking in the mirror, I just, I say that, you know, I was raped as a child.
Speaker 1 00:54:08 I've written about it. I can't, you can't ask me to vote for someone who trivializes sexual assault. Like it's not fair. So if he were to, you know, come out with an apology and explain it, he's learned, and that would change my view. But I think as a feminist, it's unjust to ask women to vote for people who so disrespect them in public, their essence. Um, and I know people will be mad at me for saying that, but I don't care. I have to say it that said, now we have a full on coup so two terrible choices. And, uh, I am not surprised at the speed if someone is going to, um, break the back of the country as democracy, because having studied those moments in history over and over, they speed is essential. Um, they have to happen super fast or else they don't work.
Speaker 1 00:55:03 And, and shock is part of it. Disorientation is part of it, which is why we're at such an interesting moment, because I think they tried and, you know, some very brave people have been resisting and documenting and reporting so effectively that it's not working as well as they thought it would. And when that happens, you start to see what we're starting to see, which is people, backpedaling, people, confessing people, getting it out there, Rochelle Lensky oh, yes. People who died had 8 million co-morbidities they were going to die anyway. You know, they want to get ahead of the, the indictments doesn't mean we're out of the woods. It just means that, um, the, the more we can make it hard for this to happen quickly, the better our chances are of surviving.
Speaker 0 00:55:47 Okay. Um, quick question from Scott Schiff, asking about the emails, uh, between Fowchee and Collins, uh, criticizing the, um, the scientists and calling for devastating down of the great bear intended.
Speaker 1 00:56:04 I mean, this is so important to look at. Imagine I, and these are, these are friends of mine. I like to say that they are friends are their heroes. And literally the ties of hell are being held back by about 24 brave people, you know, and, and a lot of other people, but, you know, in the, in the height of the public spotlight and these gentlemen and Jeffrey Tucker were way out front before anyone else bravely risking, you know, and getting huge attack by just stating kind of the obvious epidemiological wisdom, public health wisdom for decades, which was protect the vulnerable and everyone else should go about their lives. Um, and they were right. It turns out they were right. You know, so these emails aren't should be terrifying because every one of us could imagine emails like that. You know, that name we will, if we really have to find a way to shut her up and having worked inside those rooms, the power they have to shut people up is, or to sphere people is, is already massive.
Speaker 1 00:57:11 Right? So the fact that people sitting at the very pinnacle of the, really, the only funding for science in America saying, let's take out these scientists, let's destroy them reputationally. Um, that should terrify all of us, especially because these guys were not enriching themselves or exploiting what they were saying. They were just trying to avoid, you know, millions of deaths, children out of school, um, mental health problems, alcoholism, you know, other preventable deaths, they were doing their job. So it's, um, it's absolutely. I don't, I don't know what to say. It's, it's, it's criminal, it's corrupt, it's fraud. You're not supposed to use our tax dollars to go after American citizens. It's, it's wrong and evil and probably illegal on so many levels, but it's also a very terrifying, um, you know, look at how far is administration will go. Or these people I should say will go. Cause it's like, uh, a shadow government in there with that, you know, the NIH and aid to, um, to get rid of their adversaries, um, you know, reputationally.
Speaker 0 00:58:18 So that brings us just about to the top of the hour here, uh, Dr. Wolf, um, any other thoughts or topics that we didn't get to, or,
Speaker 1 00:58:30 Um, no, I guess I shouldn't always end on a note of hope. Um, I mean, I guess what I should say to everyone is please, please go outside. You know, I, I know there are limits, but the more you can resist again, this comes from history. The more you can say, you know, thank you. But I mean, th the beautiful thing about most mandates is that they can threaten to find you, but unless the police officer shows up in court, you're not going to get fined. So from history, the more people just ignore mandates, gather, you know, do what they do in France have giant picnics in the middle of the street. If they let you into the restaurants, you know, what, if you don't want to wear a mask, respect other people's space. But I always say, you know, I have a disability, the ADA covers me.
Speaker 1 00:59:19 I'm not going to wear a mask. Thank you. I'll stand 12 feet away. I'll go wherever you want me to. But I, I can't do that. Um, the more you inform each other about how to, and we did Sunday with cloud, how to submit letters to your employer, you know, demanding an exemption, um, just not complying, uh, what happens is that it costs money to enforce it on a massive level when people simply don't comply and it, it wears out those contracts. It exhausts the, the, um, the funds basically, uh, that were allocated toward breaking us as a civil society. Um, and also, you know, massive walkouts, um, massive strikes, peaceful resistance. It worked to bring down Soviet union and it can work to, uh, reestablish us as a Republic again.
Speaker 0 01:00:08 Well, that is a wonderful, um, practical and, uh, optimistic note on which to end Dr. Wolf again, thank you very much. I want to remind all of you, please check out outrageous, uh, as well as the end of America through this one, both of these actually would have quite a, uh, a libertarian appeal, um, and objected this one as well. So check those out and, um, look forward to, uh, having you all come and join us next week for our current events, uh, webinar with our faculty scholars. So thank you. Thank you, Dr. Wolf.
Speaker 1 01:00:48 Thank you so much. And thank you to the audience. I'm so thrilled to go back to Ayn Rand now and read what I missed the first time. I'm excited.
Speaker 0 01:00:56 Thank you. I will put together.
