The Atlas Society Asks Buck Angel

May 11, 2022 01:00:42
The Atlas Society Asks Buck Angel
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The Atlas Society Asks Buck Angel
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Show Notes

Join our CEO Jennifer Grossman as she speaks with Transsexual activist Buck Angel on the 103rd episode of The Atlas Society Asks. Transgender activism is a matter of hot debate—from whether biological males should be allowed to compete in women’s sports and housed in women’s prisons to Governor DeSantis’ Parental Rights in Education bill banning teaching gender identity to young schoolchildren. That's why we've invited Buck Angel to give his nuanced perspective on the issue and to provide a more balanced discussion on the topic.

Born biologically female, Buck struggled with gender dysphoria before transitioning a transsexual man. For decades he’s worked to affirm sexual freedom but has a nuanced view of some of what he sees as the excesses of transgender activism today.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello everyone. And welcome to the 103rd episode of the Atlas society asks. My name is Jennifer Andrew Grossman. I go by JAG. I identify as JAG. I'm the CEO of the Atlas society. We're the leading nonprofit organization. Introducing young people to the ideas of Iran in fun, creative ways like graphic novels and animated videos. Today, we are joined by buck angel before I even get in, into introducing my guest. I wanted to remind those of you who are joining us on zoom on Facebook on Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, go ahead and start typing in your questions. Uh, keep them short. We will get to as many of them as we can. So my guest today, buck angel is an entrepreneur and an educator born biologically female. He struggled with gender dysphoria before transitioning as a transsexual man for decades, he's worked to affirm sexual freedom, but has a nuanced view of some of what he sees as the excesses of transgender activism today. So buck, welcome again. Thanks for joining us Speaker 1 00:01:17 Right on. Thanks for having me. It's a great intro. It's actually right on, so thank you. Speaker 0 00:01:22 <laugh> awesome. All right, well, um, I'm a big fan of biographies, so I would love to, uh, start from the beginning. You have a fascinating story. So please tell us a little bit about your childhood, your experience with gender dysphoria, your family's response, as well as what your life was like before you transitioned to living as a male Speaker 1 00:01:46 Mm-hmm <affirmative> well, thank, thanks so much for asking that. Um, so I am a biological female born 59. I'll be 60 in June, 60 years ago. It's crazy that I'm alive. So I, um, and to be honest with you, I always felt male, whatever that even means. But you know, when I talked to my parents, it's like, I was a little tomboy. We used to call it tomboys when girls acted like boys and, you know, I always wanted to do the boy things, boy, boy, boy, and you know, pretty much I had a great childhood. I will be honest with you. My parents were amazing. And you know, this is in the sixties and seventies and I don't, you know, I just had regular child stuff, but nothing that really would, I would say was anything, a part of my gender dysphoria because my parents were super cool about it. Speaker 1 00:02:29 And they just let me be that boy, you know, they let me be buck. It wasn't a big deal. Uh, it wasn't really until I think high school or maybe even prior to high school where things just didn't feel right, because what happens is you start growing into your body and the things that I thought I was a boy, things were coming to my body like a girl. So that's where the gender dysphoria really started. When my puberty started happening at late, I started at 16 years old, my puberty, so menstruation and breast growing and the uncomfortability with my body. Now, not to say that that immediately means you're trans. It just meant that I would have this uncomfortable dysphoric space back in the sixties and seventies and eighties. We didn't talk about these things. It wasn't any help. You know, you, you were just relegated to you. Speaker 1 00:03:12 Maybe you're just a gay woman or maybe you're just gay. But that being said, I did a ton of therapy. My parents put me in psychiatric help. I had a couple suicide attempts, alcoholism, drug addiction, homelessness. I could just go on and on and on. And then, you know, my parents really tried. They, they tried as hard as they could. They didn't have internet eventually. You know, my parents couldn't deal with me anymore and just sort of on some level cut me loose. And I, I don't blame them in any way shape ever form. My parents really are amazing people without them cutting me loose. I don't think I would be alive today. So I had to learn how to sort of fend for myself. That being said, uh, I found a therapist who I had a long term relationship with about a year and a half. Speaker 1 00:03:51 And in that term, we, she finally realized, well, maybe you are a boy. Maybe you're not really a girl. And so how do we deal with this prior to any of what you see today? No internet, nothing. So it was really just us going for a year of, of, of, I mean, of, of therapy. And, um, with that, she encouraged me to transition, but I wasn't really a, a space for me to do that because it just didn't exist on some level. And I'm, I live in Los Angeles and eventually I found, uh, endocrinologist who worked with transgender women. So those are men who become women. And I became his Guinea pig. He said to me, dude, you're gonna be my Guinea pig. I don't know what I'm doing, but you know, I just need people to understand it. It is that life changing experience and that life saving experience. Speaker 1 00:04:33 I, I didn't have a choice. I, I just knew that I would want to kill myself always. And so I took that chance. And from there, I took a chance with a doctor to do the removal of my breasts and the same thing he said, I don't know what I'm doing, never done this before. And so really fast forward through my transition. I reconnected with my family and today I have an amazing, beautiful relationship with my parents, my sisters, the world. And it's really come down to me, just living in this space of authenticity that makes me feel comfortable to be standing here in front of you or in the world. And that's really, to me what my transition is all about. Speaker 0 00:05:09 So did you grow up in California? Speaker 1 00:05:11 Yes, I did. I was born and raised here and, um, grew up in the San Fernando valley. I was a valley girl. <laugh> <laugh>. Speaker 0 00:05:19 And so as until about the age of 12 or so you thought of yourself as a boy, your parents treated you as a boy. Were you able to go to school as a boy or Speaker 1 00:05:30 So that, that's a great question. And yeah, I was buck people called me that. Right. But they still knew that I was Laura. I like wouldn't have to do the, you know, the, the, the calling of, of, you know, out on the roll call or whatever you call it. Right. So, so there would be turmoil, no doubt, a hundred percent, but I dressed like a boy kids would tease me. I got teased left and right. You're really a girl. You're not, you know, that's just normal kid stuff, but I became a fighter, like an actual physical, like I would beat the heck out of people and that anger came out of me and it just was there underlying, you know, because it wasn't nice when people would call you names and, you know, I did get bullied a lot and, and I just learned how to sort of maneuver through it by just, you know, on some level fighting back. Speaker 0 00:06:12 So how were you, how old were you when you met this, um, doctor mm-hmm <affirmative> that, that helped you with the hormone therapy? Yeah. And, and, uh, and then I guess a second doctor that helped you with the surgery. Speaker 1 00:06:24 Yeah. So I think I, my therapist, I met around 27 or 28, and that was right around the time I was getting sober. So eventually I did get sober and I've been sober ever since from drugs and alcohol, but Speaker 0 00:06:34 Congratulations. Thank Speaker 1 00:06:35 You. Thank you that, oh Speaker 0 00:06:36 My God, that, Speaker 1 00:06:37 Oh my God, for someone like me <laugh> you came, I was slung out on crack everything. Oh my God. It was a nightmare. How I at that's why I'm saying like sobriety also saved my life and through the sobriety, my head cleared and I could start to sort of see, so it was around 27 or 28. I think that I started to see this particular therapist. Speaker 0 00:06:57 All right. Now, um, you prefer the term transsexual to describe yourself as opposed to transgender. And as I shared before we went on, I'm still, you know, getting up to speed on all of the terms. So tell me why you prefer that term. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, what's the difference and why is it important to you? Speaker 1 00:07:17 So today we have something called transgender and transgender is an umbrella term that encompasses many different types of gender variation, right? It could go anything from somebody who's nonconforming to gender all the way to somebody like me. But what I saw within this new sort of way of being was that I wasn't represented under that umbrella. And they, they actually took out the term transsexual and started saying that it's derogatory. It's antiquated. <laugh> I'm like, hello, <laugh> I'm actually here. So on, on some level, it didn't reflect transgender did not reflect me. And I, I, I, I saw, I saw a problem in the umbrella and I think umbrellas can create a very bad problem because then all these identities are one they're they're being named this, but they're all these things. And I'm like, uhoh, that's gonna cause a lot of problems. And I don't feel represented. Speaker 1 00:08:09 So for me, transsexual really represents somebody who has been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, which is me, who has gone through a system to be diagnosed, who understands that they have a disorder. I have an actual disorder called gender dysphoria. And I do not deny any of that. I believe I have a mental health problem that needs to be fixed on some level through medical transition. And that is a transsexual right on the spot. Somebody who wants to go from living as a man, to living as a woman, very binary, very much. We want to, to the world. Sorry. Mm-hmm <affirmative> Speaker 0 00:08:42 Interesting. So, you know, binaryaries has now become kind of a buzzword and a, um, one that is, uh, used pejoratively, but, but you are saying no, it's binary. I'm a guy Speaker 1 00:08:55 <laugh> that's right. That's right. A hundred percent. I, I won't play into that. That's what I'm saying. So if they they're like trying to get rid of the binary where I'm trying to be a part of the binary, like the world, the world is 99.9% binary on some level. So for me, I, I, I, I don't, I, it does not represent me and I don't, I cannot align with something that is literally a completely different space yet. We're all called the same. You see how that is gonna it's it's gonna cause problems, which it already is. So I really reclaimed the word as not only me, tons of, of people have reclaimed the word transsexual because we don't feel represented. And my mine's real basic. I have gender dysphoria, I have a disorder, I fix it through medication and surgery. And then I walk the world as a man. I don't walk the world as a trans person. I walk the world specifically in that binary space. Speaker 0 00:09:43 Interesting. Okay. So, uh, one other thing I thought was fascinated, fascinating, at least in my reading, um, of Abigail sch Fryer's book and Kara Dan's book, you're doing a little bit of research on it. It seems that, and you're an exception to this, that gender dysphoria used to be a phenomenon that manifested predominantly, but not exclusively among young boys. That's right. Uh, more recently, however, there's been a, it's almost flip flopped the other way, uh, that there's been a dramatic rise in young, um, girls and adolescents who decide, um, that they are transgender and embark on, um, regimens of, of hormones and surgeries as you eventually did. But, um, they're starting earlier and earlier. So a couple questions I wanna talk about what you might attribute this trend to, but also, uh, playing the devil's advocate. Wouldn't it wasn't possible because of the time in which you were born and grew up. Yeah. Would it not have been more helpful for you to have access to the, the, the, the, uh, surgeries or to the medications at an earlier age? Speaker 1 00:11:00 Yeah, that's an excellent question. And, and a question that I, I do think about in my own space, but what I'll say is this, the majority of people like me grew out of it. So, so here's, what's, I'm gonna tell you in my age and my time, I'm kind like, you don't think there were other girls like me, there were tons of them and we called them tomboys. Right. And of course, all my friends during that time were just like me were all girls who were very masculine and played football. And you know what I mean, what I would, I would pretty much tell you 90% of those girls, if not all, besides myself, grew out of it and became women and moved on through the world, whatever their sexuality is that, but their gender, they stayed female. They like being females. They have families, they have kids. Speaker 1 00:11:40 This is the argument on some level that I tried to put out there. And I talked to my parents about it. I said, would you have given me medication if they, and they said, no, we would've never done that because we thought maybe you would grow out of it. Mm. And, and I didn't grow out of it. I say, I always say, I grew into it, but I'm very rare. This is what we need to understand. Transsexualism is rare. It is not what we're seeing. And so that being said, yeah, some of these kids are 100% trans kids, but I would say that a lot more are not. And how can I say that? I can say that because I watch, I have a watchful eye as an elder in this community. And I watch to see, there are a massive amount of these young people, what we call now de transitioning. Speaker 1 00:12:23 And if, if, if we're not discussing that, then we don't care about this community because why would somebody detransition, you know, why would somebody like myself get into a space that saved my life and all of a sudden go, oops, I made the wrong choice. Well, how did you make the wrong choice? I never thought that I made the wrong choice because I went through a system of mental healthcare doctors slow down. Now they're just put the minute a kid says, I'm a boy or a girl they're immediately medicalizing that. So I don't necessarily think that's the proper way to go. And I don't necessarily think it alleviates the problem. I think on some level, if we're not taking it through a system and we're not having mental healthcare attached to it, how do we even know that this child 10 year old child needs to be taking some kind of medication to Stu you know, stop the puberty? I don't think we have enough research on it. Speaker 0 00:13:11 Interesting. So, um, you know, a, as you've said, you you're seeing, um, probably, I don't know, both girls and biological girls and boys who later decide to trans be transition mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, but in seeing just this, this flip flop, this large number of, of young girls and, and young, uh, women who are embarking on this at a much earlier age, then you did, um, what do you attribute that trend to? Is it change in parenting? Is it social media? Is it, uh, you know, just that this kind of, um, almost celebration of neuro divergence? What, what do you think's going on? Speaker 1 00:13:58 Well, I think you hit everything and, and, and I think it's not just one thing I do think on some level, social media plays a huge part in it. Um, because you can just, you can just see it. I mean, you can see it. I can sit back and watch it. Kids are celebrating, being trans we're told trans is beautiful. We're told trans is an identity. Remember what I was telling you earlier, the difference between a trans person on transsexual person, this isn't my identity. Yes, I am a transsexual man, but it is not my identity choice. These kids are identifying as trans, which goes against everything that trans people really wanted to do. We mostly want to assimilate back into the world. So I don't understand this choice of trans as if it's this new, uh, you know, choice to be. And that's why I also don't relate. Speaker 1 00:14:44 So for me, it's this new identity that these kids are taking on because they, they they're dealing with life. <laugh>, let's be honest here. Life is not easy, especially when you're 16 and girls, especially girls going through puberty, hating your body, like all that nonsense. So then when you see other kids like you on the internet going, well, I just had top surgery and I'm the happiest person in the world. And I'm 16, not even really processing what that actually means. So I do think on some level, kids are being for a lack of a better word indoctrinated. And being told that if you do this, your whole life is gonna be amazing. And clearly that's not true because we would not have the massive amount of youngsters saying, whoops, I made the wrong choice. Speaker 0 00:15:29 All right, well, we're gonna get to some audience questions in a bit, and I'm gonna see if we can get to anything that we can disagree on. Speaker 1 00:15:36 Awesome. Speaker 0 00:15:37 Just too boring if we too much. So yeah, one of the contentious issues is, uh, are these legal developments, uh, which allow biological males access to women's sports to, um, you know, range of women's facilities, uh, restrooms, prisons, et cetera. Um, but you know, as, as you and I were discussing earlier, I would be alarmed if, if you were to come into, uh, my dressing room, you know, at the spa. Um, but, uh, and I, you know, I can't imagine you have issues, um, going to, to, to mail facilities. So, but tell, tell us a little bit about that. Cause I, I do think there are some legitimate concerns. Speaker 1 00:16:23 Oh, there's a hundred percent legitimate concerns. Uh, and so here's, here's what I'm gonna say. I made an effort to look this way. Okay. I, I look male. I don't think that you would ever think that I was a biological female and that's the whole point. So I can actually go into the tra into the men's room anywhere across the world and the locker room and even be naked. And, you know, for the people out there don't know, I don't have what we call bottom surgery. So I still do have, uh, the female genitalia, but that being said, I can pretty much go anywhere and walk around anywhere because I make an effort to what we call pass. And so what I, what I wanna say is when there's people in my community who choose not to pass in the binary, well, then that's your choice. Speaker 1 00:17:03 100%. And I respect that, but you can't act as if people are just gonna be okay about it, cuz they're not, you know, a woman is gonna say, I'm not comfortable with you in here because you're a biological male and you still look like a biological male. So I don't, you know, the argument seems so insane to me because it, it really is disrespectful on some level, we are a small group of people. Trans is teeny Wey, Wey, Wey, Wey, compared to the rest of the world. So how are we now coming in and saying, wait a minute, here, we need all these rights and you guys can just move over that. That's never gonna work that way. So, so here's what I, I think we need to have a real conversation and stop skipping around it and stop saying like, oh, well those are trans women. Speaker 1 00:17:43 They should be allowed. No, no, no, no, no. It doesn't work that way. These trans women, some of them are pretty insane as well. The ones I have seen going into women's room and flashing and taking pictures, I've seen the actual things. We can't have this. If we expect the world to sort of understand that we wanna be a part of, we need to coexist in the world. We don't need to take over the world. And so I think I do, I'm in agreement that some women are not comfortable with it because what they're seeing men are comfortable with me because I look like a dude and it's, I don't have any issue. Like I'm not pushing against them, if that makes sense. And you know, I, I, I do have issues with us, not sort of understanding the other side of the story and, and, and hearing women say, I'm not comfortable with it, then how do we make us so that we can coexist with you instead of running over you? Speaker 0 00:18:32 All right. I wanna remind our audience that we are going to be taking questions for buck angels. So go ahead, type them in. Um, we're gonna get to as many of them as we can. Of course I have many other questions, um, myself and, um, one of which I wanted to, again, get back to your personal experience. I think one of the other areas of concern with, uh, the activism is, uh, kind of degradation of, of public discourse in which, uh, disagreement with the transgender ideology is not permitted. What has been your experience of that? Uh, what kind of pushback have, have you gotten for your views? Have your views evolved over time? Speaker 1 00:19:16 Well, it's a great evolving of the, of the, of my, of my, um, of my understanding of things. Most definitely. I'm, I'm a guy who really believes in having conversation. I, I would not be here. I wouldn't be on a lot of the other places. I go, I'm totally willing to change my views and my views have changed. You know, for a while there I was all about trans people transitioning and bringing. I was even okay with kids taking puberty blockers for a while early on it wasn't until I started being told, wait a minute, dude, you should investigate this. And then I was like, okay, right. So my views are a lot different than the majority of the views of the trans whoa, I wanna say this. The majority of the voices that are being heard, there are many people like me in the community who feel like I do, but they're not they're being silenced. Speaker 1 00:20:01 I, I, I get silenced on some level. I I'm being called a, a turf and a Transo and you know, I'm transsexual that I have internalized transphobia. Those kind of things are they shut the conversation down that says to me, they don't have anything. They don't have anything to fight back with me or to have a conversation or dialogue. They, when you just shut down and you Gaslight, it means you don't have anything. And it means that you are lying, which I believe a lot of the stuff that's coming out of the trans community is lies and deceitful. And we're not being honest with the world. So I do get pushback from the community, but I don't care. I'm, I'm a trans person too. And I get to have my own say so. And just because the majority doesn't agree with me doesn't mean that I'm right or wrong. It just means I have a different way of being Speaker 0 00:20:45 Maybe a budding objectiveist who knows. Um, alright. On, on that, uh, score, I've got some questions here, Maria Witkin on Instagram says, I love Buck's humor and outlook, and she wants to know how do you keep such positivity? Speaker 1 00:21:05 That's a great question. My friend, cuz if you knew how much I get, it's ridiculous. That's how I do it because I know what I'm saying is real. And I have integrity. I really do feel that about myself and that, you know, you could come at me all you want, but I know that what I'm saying is real. So, and also I believe like life is short, I'm almost 60. I can't be angry and mean at the world. I, I was angry and mean prior to my transition, I'm the happiest tranny in the world now because I really appreciate what I've been given by the universe. I really do appreciate my transition. I do not take it for granted. So when I see youngsters all angry and mean at the world, I'm thinking what you're getting the most amazing life changing opportunity, why y'all so mad, what what's to be mad about. So I'm not mad because I literally changed my life and my life has been magical. <laugh> Speaker 0 00:21:53 Yeah. You know, you often hear the term pride, get bandied about, but um, hearing about what you went through, what you overcame and how you struggled to me that that does seem, I mean, uh, worthy of pride because it's an accomplishment as opposed to being proud of just the way one is born, you know, over which one has no, no control. That's right. So, uh, okay. From Facebook UN har asks, why does it seem like schools are very quick to affirm or even encourage young kids to come out as trans? Um, or is it not as common as we hear? I mean, that's a good point too. I mean that is a good point. It's sort of inflammatory and it's possible that, that some, you know, uh, some of the right or exaggerating this outer proportion. Speaker 1 00:22:40 Yep. I, I I'm gonna say I agree on both of that because you know how easy it is to explode something and say, oh my God, the Martians are coming. <laugh> like what? There comes, you know, could easily do that. You get people all riled up. So most definitely, I think it's more than what is actually happening, but it is happening a hundred percent. It is happening. I live in California and, uh, it is happening here. I think in a lot of places and I don't particularly care for it. I find it to be sort of states rights on some level you're, I'm gonna put my kid in school and you're gonna teach them what you want. Not what I know about NA ain't happening. So I, I believe in I'm a parent, I'm a parent of a nine year old and that being said, so I'm not just talking about nonsense. Speaker 1 00:23:18 I know exactly what what's happening in, in my child's school. I know I'm very connected, which most parents want that. So I, I, I do think that those things are happening on some level. And I do think they're trying to teach kids about gender identity, which why, why are you doing that? Especially K through third, like really these kids already are like, just trying to deal with stuff. You can't mix them up. And so, yeah, no, I think it's a little bit overblown, but I do think it's happening and I do think we should keep our eye on it. I don't think we should just shut it off. Like, oh nah, it's only a few of 'em cuz it's not just a few. It is happening. Speaker 0 00:23:53 All right. Um, Karina Cummings on Facebook asks thoughts on the Neo pronouns craze like Z and exce and such. Is that, is that something that it's like, Hey, you know, you can have whatever pronouns you want or is it, uh, just really kind of a breakdown of, of language and things that we understand to, to signify, um, concepts? Speaker 1 00:24:19 Well, we've been doing that forever. I can tell you back in the day, 30 years ago, we called ourselves Z and Z, just so you know, it's not new in the LGBTQ community. What's new is this compelled speech space where now we have to tell our pronouns and now, and, and I just made a big post about it because I always go against the grain and the community. I'm, I'm willing to have the con you know, the controversial conversation. So I don't believe that we should, you know, whatever those kids wanna do, go for it. Kiddo, call yourself ZZA Z right on. But when somebody doesn't call you it, you can't become a cry baby because it's actually not real. And people don't understand it. If you're willing to educate the world on it with love and not with hate, then maybe you can change the way people will think about it. But you cannot come into a space and like accept everyone or expect everyone to start calling you these things, because it's what you think you are. So, you know, again, I don't care what the, these people do. They can call themselves whatever they want, but don't expect me to put my pronouns down next to my name because I made a huge effort to look like a man. And when you call, when you ask me my pronouns, it's actually disrespectful to a person like me. Speaker 0 00:25:29 Interesting. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, so, but for the uninitiated, what is Z? And Speaker 1 00:25:36 <laugh> honestly my friend, I dunno. It's like they, they come up with all it's every day. It's a new pronoun every day and they change their own pronouns by monthly. You know what I mean? And I just think Speaker 0 00:25:49 Like pronoun as accessory Speaker 1 00:25:50 That's right. So I'm like, well, how do you expect somebody to take you seriously? When Tuesday your pronoun was he and bay. And then Friday, your pronoun is she and them like, what are you talking about? Like, no, one's people are not gonna be on board with that. You know, you got, you gotta be real here. That's the white people. That's the why people are listening to me and why people respect me, even though they don't respect my choice of transitioning. They, they say, look, I don't believe what you're doing is right. But I try, but I actually respect you because you're being honest about it. And we're not being those kids. Aren't being honest about something something's going on. That's deeper than trans as far as I'm concerned. Speaker 0 00:26:26 Well, let's get into that a little bit. Um, I mean, I respect your choice to transition. I, I don't understand why people uh wouldn't is it a yeah. Religious thing or, yeah. Okay. Speaker 1 00:26:38 Yeah. It's mostly, uh, far right. Christian people, but here's the deal. I'm gonna be honest. It doesn't bother me if people don't accept me. Mm-hmm <affirmative> it just doesn't bother me because I get it. I don't necessarily accept how they worship mm-hmm <affirmative> and that that's okay. It doesn't mean I hate them. This is what I'm trying to tell the world. Look, we gots to build bridges because people only hate cuz they don't understand. It doesn't mean that they have to be at my house with my parties. It doesn't mean that in any way, shape or form, all it means is that you gotta see what I did to save my life. Cuz this is a life saving space that I'm in. It's not, I didn't just willingly choose it because I wanna be trans it's. It literally saved my life. And that's what I want the world to see. Like it doesn't matter if you agree with me and, and you think I'm gonna abomination with God, my God actually thinks I'm a badass <laugh> and it actually really helped me get to this space. So mm-hmm <affirmative> I, I, I think there's this issue with religion out there that also stops conversation and that that's dangerous con not having conversation is very dangerous. I think. Speaker 0 00:27:37 Yeah, no, I agree. I think it's happening unfortunately now with the uh, yeah, the abortion debate. Speaker 1 00:27:42 Oh, Speaker 0 00:27:43 Um, so, okay. Also Facebook Baxter ging, uh, says buck, you argued, uh, last week on a group debate with destiny. I'm not sure who destiny is. Oh yeah. So, um, tell me a bit about that debate. But anyway, Bax starts asking, uh, you guys were arguing about puberty blockers. Shouldn't be given to kids. And uh, do you know if there's, uh, data on the damage that puberty blockers are doing? Speaker 1 00:28:12 Yes. So thanks for that question. So I was on, uh, a podcast called transl culture and it mostly talked about how come the trans community has become so toxic on some level and that you can't have conversation and the minute you say something against it, you get canceled. So that's why it's called transl culture. So there was, um, it was all great cause it was all different kinds of people like, you know, conservative to really liberal to in between. It was excellent. And I, I really dig those kind of, Speaker 0 00:28:40 We'll put, we'll put the link in, in the, um, excellent in the thread so that you guys can check it out. Speaker 1 00:28:45 Yeah. Thank you. So one of the guys' name is destiny and he's a much more of a liberal space and he's all for giving kids. He's not trans, he's just a, a regular guy. And he, he, he, he, he's very liberal and he thinks giving, uh, puberty, blockers to kids is okay. And I said, no, you're wrong. My friend, you're actually wrong. I'm very passionate about it. I get a little bit heated when I talk about it because we're messing with kids like hello, people wake up. We are actually messing with children's systems. We're not changing their clothes. We're not coloring their hair. We're not painting their fingernails. We're literally giving them a medication that we don't even understand what the long term effects are. So how can we do that? So he argued with me that there is, uh, research on this that shows that it is positive. Speaker 1 00:29:34 And I said, but wait a minute here, my friend, I have research that shows that it's not, and this is the problem. Right? Cause you can go find research right now. If we're arguing about a thing, you could probably go find research that backs what you say. And I could probably go find research that backs what I say. That that's a, a real thing. But what I have is actual documentation from two countries, Finland and Sweden, where they have been doing these, these types of, I don't even wanna call it. Well, it's kind of an experiment with young people. For 20, 20 to 30 years, they've been giving them hormone blockers. They had like 30, a group of 30. They watched them grow from children on puberty blockers all the way up. And eventually they decided that they realized that it isn't a positive thing to give the puberty blockers after this many years. Speaker 1 00:30:19 So I said, fuck, my friend, there are two countries who are literally stopping puberty blockers who have long term research and are saying, we're not prepared to do this anymore. Yet. America has no long term research and we're, we're gonna give kids hormone blockers. So I, I got a little bit heated in it because he kept saying, no, it's good. And I said, well, whose kids are we gonna experiment on? Not my kid. Are you gonna experiment on your kid? He goes, well, that's the only way you can make this happen. And I said, but nobody's gonna be willing to use their kids as experiments. And then on top of that, I have a lot of research from women who were given Lu on that's the name of the drug luon, which is not for what they're giving it for. It's off use, right? Off-label use. Speaker 1 00:31:01 And they, these women have suffered years of horrible, horrible side effects. They're like, are you kidding me? We're giving this to children. So, you know, I have actual information from women, hundreds of women telling me, oh my God, this stuff is the devil. We cannot give this to children. And so me and him just kind of got into a heated debate. I mean, we walked away fine, but you know, there's part of me that gets very upset with these allies who just push this narrative without really doing the proper research and only doing the research from the stuff they're given. Speaker 0 00:31:31 Well, I think it just really goes back to the, the point that you're making about the rarity of, of true gender dysphoria that, you know, you, uh, had other young girls around you as child and they were Tom boys and you know, but they all grew out of it, you know, except for you. That's right. Yeah. And that you were, you know, miserable. Um, and you didn't, you also didn't have any, you know, of the social contagion that, that you see that's right happening right now. You were all out there on your own. Speaker 1 00:32:05 I was even during my transition when I transitioned, there was no internet. I no, all my, oh my gosh, all my friends, which were gay women literally abandoned me, called me a trait called me, you know, that's disgusting. What is that nonsense? Like, I actually did it all by myself and, and not to say like, oh, you gotta praise me for that. No, it was life or death. I, I was determined to, to become this man. And so today you have, you know, a group of kids doing these things and all being uplifted by their friends. And then if you read some of the stories of the Deran, they're like, I fell into a space where my friends kept pushing me to do this. They say that they say they didn't have a chance to even think about it. Cuz their friends kept going. You're trans you're trans and they just kind of fell into that space. Speaker 0 00:32:50 All right. Back to Instagram hunters, SLOs asks, oh, asks about mental health, um, is mental health in young people, um, a new issue or is this, uh, longstanding and it's now being taken advantage of, I mean, what, you know, especially, um, in the past couple of years we've seen, uh, uh, rise in, um, self-harming and depression. Um, some suicide rates. Yep. So I have my theories, especially in the past couple of years, but uh, yeah, Speaker 1 00:33:22 Yeah. Speaker 0 00:33:23 Yeah. What, what are your thoughts on, on mental health? Um, Speaker 1 00:33:26 It's horrible. We don't, you know, in our community, the trans community, they don't really push mental healthcare. They call it gate keeping and it just disgust me beyond belief. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for therapy. This is how I got here. And so I call it safe, keeping, I literally turned it around. I'm like, wait a minute here. This is safe. Keeping, if you don't start with your brain and you start with your cosmetic, you're in big trouble because once you do this and then your brain says, but wait a minute, I made a mistake. How are, how am I gonna change this? Look at me. <laugh> if you saw pictures of me before you wouldn't even believe it. So this is irreversible and this idea that it's reversible, they keep putting it out there. It's rev nothing's reversible. When you start doing medical transitioning, when you remove your breasts, it's not reversible. Speaker 1 00:34:09 You're gonna have to go put fake ones on and great. That's gonna be horrible for you because what if you wanna have babies? And what if you, you know, all of these other things that are lying under there, that we're not having the discussion about. And I really believe in mental healthcare and I see a huge amount of mental healthcare out there not being addressed. And when I start looking at TikTok, don't ever go on TikTok, <laugh> it'll actually blow your mind. I'm like, uh, that's all right there, that's the mental health, but they are encouraging. I believe these kids are encouraging each other, right. To sort of become this way. And it's disturbing to watch, how are they being lured into more mental health problems or they be lured into saying they have that new one. D I D, which is dissociative identity disorder. That's huge on TikTok. So, I mean, I don't know if we've always had this mental health at this level or it's gotten worse. I mean, for me, because I can actually see it now on these platforms. I see worse, but who knows? Was it already here? The problem I see is that we're not promoting proper mental healthcare. We're promoting affirmative therapy and affirmative therapy is not therapy. It's basically saying, oh yeah, you're right. You're a kangaroo. Cool. Right on what do you need? Like that's not therapy. That's affirmation, which is different. Speaker 0 00:35:26 Yeah. I mean, I've kind of seen this as part of really a whole postmodern push of, um, promoting yeah. Victimhood as an identity that it, uh, gives you a kind of moral superiority. If you can find a way to show that you are, uh, a victim or oppressed or marginalized, then um, then you have a kind of, uh, a moral hemo to be able to, um, say people can't criticize you. And, and yet you are free to, to, to criticize others. And, and I'm, I understand to, to an extent, uh, to, to the degree that the whole neurodiversity project, uh, that we don't want to unduly stigmatize, you know, and say, oh, you have gender dysphoria, you know, that's terrible. You should be ashamed. Yeah. But, um, but then to go to the opposite extreme and say, uh, you have gender dysphoria and we're not gonna call it a disorder. We're just gonna call it gender dysphoria. And that this makes you special. Mm-hmm <affirmative> no, this like made me, this was something that I was born with. And, and I'm, uh, what makes me special is that I'm, uh, rationally thinking through ways to, to deal with it respons Speaker 1 00:36:41 That's right? No, you, you, you actually just said it that's exactly right. So it's like, you're getting brownie points. You're getting a rewarded for being different. You know, I'm telling you, I, I grew up with gender dysphoria. I didn't have problems. People didn't say, oh, you're a fucking weirdo or get outta here. And they didn't, they actually didn't because they saw my suffering and they saw that my suffering is now alleviated mm-hmm <affirmative>. And that's why I'm truly honest to the world of who and what I am, my biology, all of it, because truth creates change. And when you start, when you're untruthful about anything in the world, the lie will come back on you. I trust you. Trust me that that's real. But if you're honest about your space, people can't argue with honesty. <laugh> it's like, no, this is actually real. And that's why people disagree with me doing the transition, but they respect that. I made that choice. Speaker 0 00:37:31 All right. Marina marina on Twitter. Yeah. Twitter pee. You guys are kind of quiet today. <laugh> she? She wants to know, uh, kind of a, a personal question, but you're putting it all out there. So did you ever consider bottom surgery or is there a reason that you didn't do it and yeah, I, I I'll, uh, acknowledge, I was wondering, was it a question of just the, the medical technology at the time or what Speaker 1 00:37:56 So great question. I, I wanna say that too. I'm open to any question. So I'm not, I'm not embarrassed or anything to talk about, whatever you all wanna talk about. So, so that being said, um, I, of course I completely thought of getting, um, bottom surgery back in the day 20, 30 years ago. I mean, it's all, what makes you a man? Your penis makes you a man. So it was like really ingrained in my brain that I needed to have a penis. And you know, the small amount of trans guys that were out there, we were all looking to get penises. But to be honest with you, I didn't see what I wanted. Like I just, it just, wasn't there, the amount of surgery you have to cut, you know, back in the day and they still do the surgery where they cut the arm, they take the tendon out, they do a huge amount of surgery. Speaker 1 00:38:35 They take skin from here and I'm thinking, wow, they're literally gonna, I'm gonna have a tattooed penis. <laugh> because I have to take this from my heart. So I'm thinking, no, it wasn't any of that. The bottom line is the choice that I chose not to do. It was because I didn't operate like a biological man's penis. And, um, I didn't, I don't need it that bad unless it's going to enhance my life, which it wasn't because you can't really have sexual relations. You can't have any of the things that a normal right. A biological male could have. So I just opted out because I didn't see, I did not see the, what I wanted. And it was a difficult choice. I'll be honest with you, a whole so difficult for me. I just cried a lot. I'm like, I'm never gonna be a man. And, um, I realized that I don't need it <laugh> and that people are totally chill about it. And I have partners and you know what I mean? I have sex and I have all the things that I wanted to have in the world. And it was actually a, I can't even tell you, it was the best choice I ever made ever it, besides Speaker 0 00:39:34 Doing all this to let it go. Well, yep. Technology is still evolving. So that's what the future will bring. That's right. Uh, okay. Bruce wants to know buck time to write a book <laugh> Speaker 1 00:39:46 It's happening right now as we speak. So thank you for saying that. I appreciate that. Yeah. It is the exact time to do it. So I guess my point is I waited a long time, but I feel like it's finally the time, you know, I'm writing it to the parents out there. My book is really gonna be dedicated to parents and how, and what's going on. And you know, these are the things that happen to me, or these are things happening with your child. The parents are lost. It makes me so sad to think about being a parent in this time. Speaker 0 00:40:15 Okay. Um, four by four on Instagram, are people who transition today actually feeling dysphoria or is it more to feel included in a group? It's probably hard to say, right? Speaker 1 00:40:29 Yeah. I can't, I can't speak Speaker 0 00:40:30 For those kids. They get inside your heads. Speaker 1 00:40:32 Mm-hmm <affirmative> no, yeah. I can't speak for those kids, but as a person who did transition and standing back, and then I keep going back to detransition and I will, because they are sort of the space that I can use in a, in a sense to show that something's wrong. Something's wrong with this equation, all these kids, aren't happy. All these kids aren't transitioning and moving on in the world. All these kids are literally in this space of trans and it's become a sort of club on some level because they're really identifying as trans and have created these rules and regulations around trans, right. And that's not, that's not trans that's something else because there are no rules and regulations. When you transition, you're just doing it to save your life and you're doing it to move forward. So partly I do think that I can't a hundred percent tell you that that's the truth, but from my own elder space in this community, I do think some kids are transitioning for the wrong reason. Speaker 0 00:41:24 All right. Um, my friend Scott, uh, is asking, did about the, uh, issue of like Leah Thomas and, um, some of the, uh, transgender women who are participating in women's sports. And, uh, whether you think that's fair. Speaker 1 00:41:48 Well, you know, again, this, this is a very controversial space in our community and it just, it it's horrible because as a person who grew up female and socialized as a female and actually was a very big athlete as a female, I, I was really training for the Olympics and really got into a very high ranking space as a, as a female athlete. I will tell you that. I don't think that it's fair. And it's obvious. You can just look at it. It's not like it outta smoke and mirrors. It's like literally there. So it doesn't mean you're transphobic. I am far from transphobic. It means I'm about fairness. And as a previous living as a female and worked my butt off to get to the space I got to it, it is unfair on some level that they'll never get those records back. And so it it's upsetting to me that our community isn't being honest about that, right? Speaker 1 00:42:40 They're not, they're not being honest about it. And like, so what do we need to do about it? Well, what we need to do is figure out how to coexist together. And instead of just running over everybody, we need to like, say, Hey, wait a minute. Do we need to make a trans league? Maybe we do. Maybe we do. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's like, as if we're denying our transness on some level, we're denying that we're different. We are a 100% different than everybody else. And that's something that we need to start having a conversation about, Speaker 0 00:43:07 Fuck, you are an entrepreneur. You know what I am, there is a huge, I bet you, if you were to say, I'm gonna start trans, I mean, maybe they're out there already, but, uh, that, uh, start your investment firm. The money is, is gonna start pouring in Speaker 1 00:43:23 It's there <laugh> money is there, right? Yeah. No. Oh my gosh. You know, I mean, I was on market watch or something like that. And then I looked and it was like literally telling people to invest in trans surgery. Do you know that they're actually pushing people to invest in trans medicine, trans surgery, as you know, in, in, in investments because they do see the future of this as a billion dollar business, which I, I actually find disturbing on some level. Speaker 0 00:43:49 All right. Well, I'm gonna get back to a few of, uh, of my questions. Um, but please everybody keep them coming. I think we've got about, uh, 15 more minutes. Um, so, uh, let's see what I have here for you. Okay. Um, you raised some eyebrows, uh, in the trans community by welcoming a debate and discussion with conservatives like Charlie Kirk, a turning point. Uh, so tell us a little bit about that conversation and what is your message to religious conservatives and others who either don't understand transsexualism or are outright hostile to it? Speaker 1 00:44:29 <laugh>, there's always gonna be hostile people. That's just reality. <laugh> you can see my age now. I've, I've become much more able to just deal with hate, like who cares? Like I'll just brush it right off. But that being said, that's why I take those debates. So I took the debate with Charlie Kirk, when turning point reached out to me, they were very gracious. They're very gracious. They're amazing people. They were so great and loving tr treated me like a rockstar seriously from, we came from different spaces. But, you know, I, I, when you asked me to come on, I will come on because you're actually extending a hand to me. And I love that more than anything. So me and Charlie, I'll never forget. Charlie walked out. He was so nervous <laugh> he couldn't handle it. He could not handle it. So, I mean, I, I, I was right there. Speaker 1 00:45:12 Oops. I think I got this guy <laugh> so he just, you know, he, he had a problem with it because he doesn't agree with what I did, which is like, that's a great conversation. If you don't agree with me, I'm so there. And, um, you know, it just came out so great because I, I have learned to not be angry when people disagree with me most of the time, you know, when it came to the kids thing, I got a little bit angry, but that being said, I've learned to listen, I think we've lost this sort of skill of listening. Just listen. And then you can say something, but I think people have a hard time listening because they feel as if that, what, what you're doing is telling them how to think. I'm not telling you how to think. I'm telling you how I think. Speaker 1 00:45:52 So when he, you know, came at me with morals, cuz he's a hardcore Christian right guy. So he kept putting morals on the table and I'm like, dude, wait a minute here. Your morals are different than my morals. We have different morals. And that, that can't be an argument because I come to the table in a different way of being, I just think it came out great. I have to tell you that I got so many amazing like responses from right. You know, far, right. Christian people who do not agree with my lifestyle, but said, I respect you. That's all I ever want. My friend just respect me. We can just go on to the world. And it became huge. That whole debate really opened lots of doors. Speaker 0 00:46:28 So please. Well, that's I saw that and I was like, Hmm, because, um, you know, as I mentioned, I had had Kara Dansky on, we have some, uh, trans members, uh, trans women, uh, that are, uh, supporters of, of the ATLA society. And, um, they were, you know, somewhat, uh, offended with, uh, Kara Dan's criticism. They don't agree with her. That's okay. Oh yeah. Um, but, so I wanted to know if you are familiar, uh, with either Kara Dan's book or with Abigail Schreyer now they they're both feminists mm-hmm <affirmative> that? I think they're both kind of coming to this from the political left. Yep. Um, Dansky is more, uh, concerned about as a feminist protecting women's sports women's yep. Uh, spaces. And again, you know, maybe that's, it's, it's not as big of a concern, but you know, I'm seeing what's happening with, uh, having to hand out condoms and in, um, uh, you know, women's prisons Speaker 1 00:47:33 In a women's room. Oh my Speaker 0 00:47:35 God. Seems to be an, an issue. Um, and I think Abigail Schreyer was more, is more concerned with, um, the social contagion and uh, you know, so yeah. Dansky is looking really about the protection of women spaces. Yeah. And triers is looking more about, you know, young, young girls and upstairs the irreversible damage that can be done if they, they, um, transition for the wrong reason. So yeah. Speaker 1 00:48:02 So, so I'm not really a hundred percent familiar with, um, Kara, uh, Danskin. Is that her name I'm gonna, I'm gonna look her up, but if that's her viewpoint, I respect it. And I think she has every right to talk about that because why can't trans women ha dominate the conversation that doesn't make sense to me. Why can't women also have an opinion about what's going on? It doesn't make them transphobic in any way, shape or form they're talking about their space. So if a trans woman could say, I don't feel included in this space and then a wo woman, can't say, I don't feel included in this space. Like it's just so it, it hypocrisy at its finest. If there's anything we can learn about what's going on today, it's hypocrisy. Only one group can say something, but no other group can say it. Speaker 1 00:48:45 And it's just like insane to me. So I am all for, uh, a person like herself saying, this is how I feel. And this is what I think. And I'm not comfortable with these people coming into my space and how do we, there's nothing wrong with that in any way, shape or form, because to me, it makes us have the conversation and then we can figure out, well, how can we invite trans women into the space? Cause it, it, it, it, it needs to be talked about, uh, secondly, Abigail Schreyer is a very great friend of mine. We're, we're, we're very close. And she also interviewed me for her book and the book is extremely important book. It's it got really rail, you know, raped across the rails from the trans com the trans community. But I'll tell you what, it's a very important book and what she states in there is very important. Speaker 1 00:49:27 And it's something we should look at. Why is there such a 4000% increase of young girls transitioning? They're they're we can't just ignore that. And we can't just say, oh, it's just because now it's accessible. That's not true. That is not true. There's no way there would be that much of an upswing. Why, where are all the young boys? And that was the case then how come there's not young boys in such a huge, you know, vast, the vast upswing of transitioning. So she makes amazing points. I think the book is very important. It's not transphobic. It just talks about why is this happening? And so, you know, there's that conversation shut down again. Everything's transphobic. You can't have a conversation. Speaker 0 00:50:07 All right. Uh, John MC Elliot 24 on Instagram, um, wants to ask about the surgery transition surgery. Mm-hmm <affirmative> uh, is it's very expensive. He would assume mm-hmm <affirmative> right. Not sure if it's covered by, um, yeah, so, Speaker 1 00:50:23 Well, it's some, some, some insurance companies are starting to, uh, cover, uh, top surgeries, which is removal of the breast. And some I think are starting to, um, maybe pay for bottom surgery. I think it's starting to kind of get its way and they pay for, um, hormones where I came from a space where I had to pay everything out of my pocket. Speaker 0 00:50:44 Got it. Yeah. Um, alright. And then let's see, uh, therapy, John Elliot on Twitter's asking, do you think people, uh, like therapists, I mean, you've had an amazing therapist. Mm-hmm <affirmative> who, uh, was clearly, was it a female or male? Speaker 1 00:51:02 Uh, a woman, a gay woman at that okay. Speaker 0 00:51:05 Ahead of her time. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and, uh, was able to help you get the help that, um, you needed. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, do you feel like that things have, have swung too far? Um, are, are therapists now not being, uh, critical enough? Is there sort of a proliferation of therapists who will give you the diagnosis that you want? Speaker 1 00:51:27 Yep. That's you just, there are therapists out there who will write a letter. Do you know some places you actually needed a letter to get top surgery or start your hormones. You need a letter from your therapist showing that you went to therapy and that there are actual therapists promoting the fact that you don't have to come and see me. I'll just write you a letter. They're promoting that like on Instagram. And I'm like, uh, I report them. I report all of them. That is not therapy. And that is complete. And total totally disastrous. What are you doing as a therapist? And number two, I have a lot of therapist, friends who feel so upset right now because they can't actually apply the therapy that they have been taught because now in California, it's affirmative therapy. You're not allowed to challenge this child who comes in and says, I'm trans. You're not allowed to say, well, what does that even mean to you? You know, you have to say, oh, okay. So <laugh> now what? Right. So no, I think therapy has been messed with, and I think that there is no such thing as therapy right now. Affirmative therapy is not real. That's that's just saying. Yeah. Okay. I agree with you. How is that even therapy? It's some, it's just some other weird indoctrination. Speaker 0 00:52:34 All right. Uh, on Facebook, Jenna Barton asks, uh, what do you think was the hardest thing that you had to do to make, to finally feel that you had come into, you know, your body as, as a man? Speaker 1 00:52:48 That's a really awesome question. I don't think anyone has ever really asked me that. So, you know, it's years, I don't think it's one thing. I think it's really just years of, of, of being me. And, you know, in the beginning it was horrible. People did actually look at me weird. And like, there was just so many weird things I had to deal with cuz I did it 30 years ago and people had no clue what it even meant. Especially a woman to a man. We always had, we always had men to women, right. Those have always kind of been out there, but, but a, but a woman to a man has been always very kind of under the table. So I think really just moving through the world and dealing with all the nonsense and the has been one of the most powerful things for me to grow into a person of understanding that I don't have to put hate out in the world. And so when I actually learned how to look at myself in the mirror and my body, it just changed everything, naked, it being naked and saying, this is me, this is what I have to deal with. This is what the world has to deal with. And it doesn't make me a bad person and it really was mind blowingly powerful. And so on some level I exposed my whole being to the world and I have been so much happier ever since on some level. And so, yeah, it's just been an amazing journey that I've had. Speaker 0 00:54:03 This is a great question from Facebook, Candace, uh, Hernandez asks is the craziness that you see in the trans community, um, local to the United States, or is this, uh, global, a global phenomenon you mentioned, right. Sweden and, and Finland and uh, making some provisions and how they were approaching this. So how much of this is just kind of, um, a, an American political, Speaker 1 00:54:30 Well, it's for sure started here all of this stuff, that's Western for sure. But it is creeping into the rest of the world because I get people writing me from Spain, from, you know, the UK, the UK is as bad as us, just so you know, Canada's pretty bad too, but you know, it's kind of more we Western, but that being said, oh no, it's creeping over to Brazil. It's creeping everywhere. It's an ideology. I really believe it as an ideology because of the way it's being spoken about and the way it's being taught and the way you, you don't need to be taught to be trans. You don't want to be trans. You are trans. So when I start hearing this terminology, I'm like, hold up. You're Luing you are Luing people into this. I don't want anybody. I'll be honest. I don't want anybody to be trans unless they actually are as an actual disorder that move, save your life. I don't encourage people to be trans. I encourage people to find a space of happiness, whatever that even means to you cuz trans isn't is trans, is not the end all Beall. And in fact, you might be making the wrong choice. It is not what is being fed to the youth. And it's not real what we're being told. Or there was a lot of lies attached to this new trans ideology. Speaker 0 00:55:38 All right. Well on that, I'll I'll uh, end with a segue. And one last question, um, from Instagram John asks, what do you feel about the term groomer as it's being used by some yeah. Conservatives, because when you, you hate it, but you, but you're talking about Luing. Yeah. Right. So what's the difference? Speaker 1 00:55:59 Well, groomer has always been pushed onto a sexual space. I, I actually started my work in the sexual world, so I'm very familiar with groomer and groomer has always been attached to pedophilia. Okay. And pedophilia is a sexual space. It is not just saying, oh, we're all kind of bringing in. So when you start using a word that has always been relegated to a space of weirdos, pedophile, like sexual towards children, that gets to be very dangerous. I get called a groomer, you know, because I talk about my transition and I really try to help young people understand. So I immediately get called a groom. So that's what I'm saying to you. They're not using it in the same context that is actually supposed to be. Now I'm not about kids, you know, being used in sex and none of that pedophilia, none of that. Speaker 1 00:56:41 I'm totally against all of that. So when you start to sort of use, call me a groomer, you're taking eyes off of the real groomers. Okay. Cuz they're out there and they're doing creepy, weird shit with kids, but the, I am far from a groomer. And so you see what I'm saying? So what happens is that groomer label gets put onto this new trans face as if we're, you know, definitely people are trying to lure children a hundred percent, but I think the word groomer is a very dangerous space that we're kind of getting into and you're losing, you know, you're losing the, the, the under the focus of what that really means. And so we definitely are, I think on some level dangling, uh, there to say, Hey, come over here. It's gonna be better for you if you're that. But that, that to me is not necessarily grooming. Speaker 0 00:57:23 Okay. So making distinctions between, um, real grooming or trying to, um, entice children into sexual activities that's right. Kind of, you know, stuff that you saw in Afghanistan with the Budi and the, the cha boys. Yep. Um, or child abuse. And uh, and then this other aspect of, of people getting lured into an ideology of that's right. Belonging and getting confused, um, between what their true actual, what Speaker 1 00:57:55 Their true identity or identity. Yeah. And also we need to come up with a different word. Yeah. They are on some level Luing, but it's not grooming. And that's what we need to sort of understand. Like it's important that we create a word it's the same with trans and trans transsexual trans like we just have one word <laugh> yet there's all these different things. It that's why umbrella terms don't work and they're very dangerous. Speaker 0 00:58:18 All right. Well that is taking us up. I did the, almost the top of the hour. Anything else that we missed that you wanted to add? We've got a few requests here. People are gonna want, uh, especially at the ATLA society, some review copies of, of your books. Excellent. This comes out. I Speaker 1 00:58:33 Awesome. I totally appreciate that. Thank you so much. I'll definitely do that. Excellent. Speaker 0 00:58:38 Well, great. And what's next for you bug? Speaker 1 00:58:41 Oh my gosh. <laugh> well, the book is a lot, cause I'm not a writer, you know, I'm more of a public speaker, you know, I do. That's really my position now as I, I really travel the world, speaking to people, but, but that being said, the book is really something I'm focusing a lot on. And, and what I'm doing right now is really working with my mom to create videos, to, um, really talk about my transition and when I was young and the things that my mom dealt with, because I think it will really help. A lot of parents see things in a way that my parent, my mom has the same sort of a way that a lot of parents are dealing with. Well, my mom had to deal with, with me, it's the same as what people are dealing with today. So I'm working on those kind of things. I'm really trying to get people to have conversation like us. We had such amazing conversation. Speaker 0 00:59:24 Well, I, I really enjoyed it. Um, and uh, I wanna thank you for joining us today. Thank you. Um, I, where do we find you? It it's the best place to come. Oh gosh. Speaker 1 00:59:34 I'm so easy. Speaker 0 00:59:34 Social. Speaker 1 00:59:35 Yeah. Twitter buck angel, Instagram book angel. Uh, Facebook is buck angel official that I'm not really a big, a lot there I'm on Twitter and Instagram. You'll see more of that. And also my, my, my website buck angel, but you know, buck angel.com. But if anyone ever really just reach out, I'm very accessible because I actually care. I do. And if you're really wanting to have a conversation with me, I will be there with you. Speaker 0 00:59:57 Great. Well, we will be continuing this. You and I are not that far away. You're in LA I'm in Malibu. Awesome. So I look forward to actually meeting you in the flesh. Awesome. Um, I wanna thank also everyone who joined us today. Uh, great engagement, really thoughtful questions, and we appreciate it. And if you appreciate the show, if you appreciate the work that we do at the ATLA society, please consider supporting us with a tax deductible donation. And, uh, we will see you next week when, uh, we're gonna have professor Jason Brennan, uh, prolific author of many books, including why it's okay to want to be rich on this. Speaker 1 01:00:35 Right. <laugh> I love that guy already. <laugh> Speaker 0 01:00:39 All right. Well, thanks everyone. Take care.

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