Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the 215th episode of the Atlas Society asks. My name is Jennifer Anju Grossman. My friends call me Jag. I am the CEO of the Atlas Society. We are the leading nonprofit organization introducing young people to the ideas of Ayn Rand in a whole host of creative ways, ranging from graphic novels to animated videos, AI animated videos, even music videos. Today we are joined by Juan Pio Hernandez. Before I even begin to introduce our guest, I want to remind all of you who are joining us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube. You can use the comments section to type in your questions. And we're going to get to as many of them as we can. So our guest, Juan Pio Hernandez, is the executive director of Plan Pays, a us based nonprofit organization that connects and educates the venezuelan diaspora and youth through the A platform for the exchange of knowledge, talent, and ideas. He is a member of the McCain Institute's Global Leaders program and has worked to change the narrative around migration, working to build high impact networks, incentivizing the two way stream of value that migration flows bring. So, Juan, thank you for joining us.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: Well, thank you very much and for having me for this invitation.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: So we're going to talk about the situation in Venezuela, which is changing minute by minute. So I thought this would be a good time to check in and maybe just dive a little bit deeper. Beyond the headlines, the us government has recognized Maduro challenger Edmundo Gonzalez as the winner of July's election. Is that a reasonable conclusion based on evidence that we've seen? If so, what tangible actions should the US take to support the winner of the election?
[00:02:07] Speaker B: Well, thank you very much for bringing this important topic to the discussion, like Venezuela in the news. And it's very important for everybody to understand what's going on.
As you all know, Venezuela's democracy has been eroded pretty bad over the last couple of decades and under very, very challenging and adversarial conditions. The democratic forces in Venezuela have made a number of attempts to recover democracy and recover their freedoms or liberty. And in this cycle, you have seen that after taking under a very adverse conditions, they took the strong commitment to participate in this electoral process. Like last year, like, if we remember the start of last year, all the democratic forces and the Minnesota population was very, like, down feeling defeated from the dictatorship and the authoritarian regime.
And you saw that there was this, like, democratic quest that arose when the democratic forces started organizing primaries, primaries, to elect a leader to represent them on the elections for this, like, constitutionally mandated for this year and under, like, after all the challenges and all the different obstacles that dictatorship threw their way. We were able to do those primaries and Maria Corina Machado was elected the leader as a candidate to participate in those, in these elections. But the government refused to allow Marecorina Machal, who's a liberty oriented leader, to participate in the elections.
And there were a lot of number of moves.
Then she picked a successor who wasn't allowed to register as well. And then they allowed to register this candidate, Edmondo Gonzalez.
And the democratic forces were very committed to participate in these elections. And we went to the polls. We went to the polls after a series of violations, like starting from like that. As you know, Venezuelans have been migrating and they're the largest active flows of migrants around the world. And about like, of the 8 million Venezuelans around the world, about 5 million are allowed, like our over age and they're allowed to vote and they did not allow those to register to vote. So even like starting from those violations and the number of others in the country, everybody like the democratic forces decided to participate in elections. They went massively to participate and we won and the democratic forces won.
And then the government announced this bogus results not supported by the electoral data that each voting machine admits that the witnesses were able to collect and all that. And the democratic forces were able to prove the fraud. And the world committee has seen the fraud. So sorry for giving all the background all this, but you have seen that the US has like failed and then the fails has refused to recognize the results announced by, by the regime. And not only the US, but a number of other countries have refused to recognize to.
[00:05:50] Speaker A: Validate this situation and demand.
[00:05:56] Speaker B: That the electoral council, the electoral authorities publish the electoral data.
[00:06:03] Speaker A: So there have been previous attempted coups in 2002 against Chavez and then more recently in 2019 in Venezuela against Maduro, but they failed. Should we expect that Maduro is planning to hold out against what he might try to blame as a siege against the Chavismo revolution?
[00:06:29] Speaker B: Yeah, well, like, as you have seen, the venezuelan people has like gone through a lot of cycles and a lot of episodes to recover their democracy. And as you see from this latest episode, from not only dealing with the arbitrariness of the electoral council and all the other co opted institutions, like venezuelan people are democratic people and we want to topple this regime, like through the electoral route. Like what the episodes that you mentioned in 2002 and 2019, like, there's a lot of debate if they were coups or not, but like, there were military movements that were in response to abuses from the government, like, in the case of 2002, it was when the Chavez government, back at the time, like, ordered the military forces to attack a democratic and Pacific demonstration taking place in Caracas. In the case of 2019, was when the constitutional order was completely eradicated by a series of actions that started from not recognizing the electoral results of the 2015 parliamentary elections.
But, yeah, so what you're seeing right now is like a strong will of the venezuelan people to get change in a democratic way.
And we don't know how this is going to end. Like, if there's somebody wanting to throw a coup, is the regime with this refusal to accept the results and all the coercion and the co opting of the other institutions that they have done. So there might be some negotiations under the radar that we are not aware of that involve the different factions of Chavismo, the democratic forces, and of course, the international community, which is not only led by the US and maybe the EU and all that, but other than democratic countries in the region that are not aligned to the left or right, back to the right or to the US necessarily, but also includes a lot of, like, ideologically left wing governments that happen to be democratic.
[00:08:58] Speaker A: Well, so that's a very interesting way of framing it. When you said that, yes, there is a coup, and it is actually a coup against the legitimate government which was elected. Right. That was the vote of the people and the will of the majority. And the fact that the Maduro regime is not acknowledging those and ceding power, it is in fact, that regime that has staged a coup.
So many people think of Maduro as the main problem, but Antonella Marty reminded me that he's just the face of a vast regime and not necessarily the one who makes all of the decisions. Is that a fair assessment?
[00:09:45] Speaker B: 100%. 100%. What you see, what you see in Venezuela is like a coalition of evil in a way that involves not only, like, truck kickpings, like, and cartels, but also, like, illegal gold and illegal minerals, crime rings that have been exploiting the environment and exploiting national parks to extract gold and other minerals and sell that. And also, and also this coalition involves other authoritarian regimes around the world. Like, of course, China, Russia and Iran have a hand in Venezuela and a lot of, like, organized crime in a way, and armed irregular groups. And you're seeing that, yes, it is kind of like a coalition where, like, Maduro is at the top of it, but every single gang and groups have a sphere of influence. It could be geographic, it could be within different sectors of the economy or what's left of the economy.
And that's what you have. And that's why it's very, like, it's very shaky.
[00:11:33] Speaker A: What's very dicey that could one part of the coalition be persuaded to get behind the election results? And what you mentioned about these other countries, Iran, Russia, China, inside Venezuela. I remember that during the lockdown, the quarantine, that I decided I would try to brush up on my spanish. And so I hired a tutor who was in fact, in the country of Venezuela.
And he, in fact, was an engineer and not necessarily a tutor, but he refused to sign some kind of paper of pledging allegiance to the regime that you have to do in order to work. So he was forced to try to not starve by offering $5 lessons to people around the world. And I remember one day that he had said that he had seen in the port that there were oil tankers coming in from Iran and how humiliating that was, right? Because Venezuela is this very resource rich, oil rich country, but because of communism, all of the people that would be able to actually run the equipment and extract and refine the oil, that they have become part of your network, Juan. They've become part of the diaspora.
And that kind of reminds me, we had this video that we put out. My name is Venezuela. We have it in Spanish.
And we were actually able to boost it inside Venezuela. And obviously, there was a lot of people who commented, this is exactly right. We are prisoners, just like the main character in our video. But I was also kind of surprised by some supporters of Maduro and communists inside the comments. So I always wanted to ask someone with your expertise, what is the motivation of supporters of the Maduro regime, aside from these cartels and these coalitions of special interests among the rank and file, is it an ideological motivation? Is that these are committed Marxists? Is the regime at all successful in providing housing or welfare or healthcare?
What's going on?
[00:14:24] Speaker B: I don't think, if you think about economics or models, that anything can be labeled as successful when referring to the venezuelan regime.
It is a country that is best rich on resources and talent and people that has been collapsed. If you look at what the economy was in Venezuela ten years ago, or as simple as ten years ago, that economy has decreased by 80%. So we are 20% the country that we were ten years ago. And this is over mismanagement by a flawed economic model and by government controls that had been wanting to take over the whole economy.
Given that downturn and all that economic collapse during the pandemic and during the 2019 crisis, with interim government all that, the regime kind of started leaving some businesses alone. So there was this de facto, uh, dollarization that, uh, was, was that took place very disorganized. But, you know, it also talks about like, the power of. Of markets in a way that's something that is not in the regime's like, uh, planning and all that, but that some things got in order that way. But those are bubbles. Like, so that dollarization only took place on. On the sectors of the economy that had access to dollars, and they were very concentrated on the large cities like Caracas and in other specific places. So, like, if you ask me, what attracts the population to support that? Like, you've seen that they're a minority every day more and more. Like, if you see on the results that are backed I by the act, the electoral data that the opposition was able to collect, which amount to about 90% of the results, the actual results are 70 30. So it's 70% of the population that wants change and 30% of the population that includes government workers, like government employees who were harassed into participating, like people who are menaced, people who depend on the government for. For staples and all that. And even then you saw that, like, there was a lot of cases that were vocalized with the democratic forces and all that were saying, like, well, you know, like, I accept the crumble, the crumbs that they gave me, but I'm going to vote for you silently, like they're going to. So, yeah, so, like, I, like, Venezuela cannot be considered like an ideology. Like right now. It's just like this, you know, like a vow of interest that. That are there collected on a very. On a very, like, bad, like, scheme against the venezuelan people. And we're hostages of that. We're hostages of this structure.
[00:17:47] Speaker A: Well, that's exactly how we presented it in our, in our video. We, the main character, Venezuela, we presented as a woman who was kind of seduced into kind of marrying this regime, but then found that after democratically electing this monster, that he wouldn't let go and was in prison. But I don't want to completely leave ideology for a moment. Maybe if we can go back in time and zoom out to the communist infiltration in the entire region and how that was funneled through Cuba. So I worked at Dole Food company for about a dozen years, and we had vast operations throughout Latin America and what our operators down there would tell me. And I was just reminded of this. I read this book by the former president of Dole Food Company, who actually previously had been the president of the latin american operations. And what he said was that he would often have interactions with labor activists who'd been recruited at a very young age to be educated in communist Cuba. And then the very best students would be sent to the Soviet Union to receive further indoctrination. Now, we're talking about going back 40 years ago, how pivotal would you estimate the role of Cuba has been and the role of the former USSR in spreading this ideology throughout Latin America?
[00:19:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say that the growth Cuba, Russia, and in a way, China has been central to this regime taking hold, and I. Maintaining power. I.
Like, if you ask me, the ideology, like, I don't think the ideology per se is very ingrained in the country. And if you see even the Chavistas are very materialistic and crooked. Crony capitalism, like government controlled crony capitalism in a way only for the. Or the connected ones, like, what do we call them in as one of the Enchi paddles, the plugged in.
So the oligarchy.
So, yes, I would say that there's a real knight ideology that took place, and Cuba has been central that. But at the end of the day, it has been a model seeking power. Seeking power and maintaining power at all cost. And that includes even betraying their own ideology in other ways.
But if you go through Stalinism and that government control, using government authoritarianism, that's something that is very present in Venezuela. And the backbone of that is Cuba.
[00:21:12] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that was really very, very eye opening for me because I always kind of scratched my head, like, why do these countries just keep going back to communism and socialism when they have so many practical examples of its failure? So to have just a little bit of a window onto how this was orchestrated by the Soviet Union, I just.
[00:21:36] Speaker B: Want to add, I'm a cuban. Venezuelan. Cuban. Venezuelan Americans. So, like, so, yeah, my family came from Cuba. Fluke. Cuba came to Venezuela, and now I'm here in the US.
[00:21:48] Speaker A: All right, well, we've got a lot of audience questions, so I'm going to just dip into those on YouTube. Lockstock. And Beryl asks, what does. How does Juan think the people can change things without Second Amendment protections? That is an armed citizenry. So I guess kind of also imagine, like, how. How different things might be right now if the population was armed.
[00:22:16] Speaker B: The population is armed, like, oh, it is the things like that. That, yeah, it's armed in a very disorganized way. And that's why you had like, that Venezuela was a very, like, it's a very dangerous country. Yes. And it's a country where gangs and. And criminal groups run free. So, like, what you see is that, as we were mentioned earlier, like, their divisions and kind of, like, it's very sectoralized. So you have very, like, a lot of armed groups, like, taking on that. And at the end of the day, like, the regime controls not only their alliances with these armed groups, but also their alliance with. Not their alliance that they control the armed forces as well. So, like, a popular uprising, a violent and armed uprising is not in the works. Like, the democratic forces are not violent.
And, yeah, that's why they have, like, chosen.
[00:23:32] Speaker A: The peaceful route. The democratic route. So, I mean, you know, I did, in talking with my tutor down in Venezuela, he did talk about the danger and the lawlessness and zero protection for individual rights there. But so is it illegal to. So I understand why just an average citizen, a family, they would want to have a firearm in that home. Is that allowed or is that considered illegal by, you know.
[00:24:09] Speaker B: Yeah, like, yeah, like, I would like if you.
The first, like, people are able to get weapons, but of course, like, the institutionality of it is very. It's very, you know, like, very, like, people go for the black market, and that's what makes it very dangerous. That's what make it very dangerous. And that's why, like, you've seen that Venezuela was. Had a, what? Like, has one of some of the highest murder, like, murder rates around the world and all that. And. And, like, you know, like, urging an armed revolt is nothing. Something that will come from the message from the Democrat. Like, if you're somebody who holds democracy, it's not something that you're saying. We have to stick to the peaceful and democratic route.
[00:25:09] Speaker A: All right, another question here from Candice Morena on YouTube. She wants to know what has been the response of the venezuelan diaspora supportive of the protests, concerned? What is the vibe?
[00:25:22] Speaker B: Yeah, well, the Vincent diaspora has done a great work in a number of ways. Like, even though, like, here, this term is very, like, oriented to an american audience. Like, everybody talks here about voter suppression in Venezuela. We dealt with a lot of voter suppression in this cycle where 4.55 million Venezuelans were not allowed to participate through a violation of their political and civic rights. So not only, like, so the very few were able to vote, voted and participated in this process, but it was, like, around 1%. What has the diaspora done? The diaspora has mobilized in their host countries, primarily Colombia, Peru, Chile, Spain, the US, to raise awareness about what's going on. They have organize a series of demonstrations to raise awareness and also advocate, like in the different countries for the host governments not to recognize this fraud and this farce. And you've seen great movement, like, you've seen the chilean diaspora, the chilean venezuelan diaspora. The venezuelan diaspora in Chile has done a great work, like advocating for the chilean government to take the position that it takes right now here in the US as well. Like here in the US, you have seen that the Venezuela issue is a bipartisan issue. And even though the US is very polarized, you've seen commonalities on the venezuelan issue.
And also the diaspora has been a central part as well, informing. So if you think about Venezuela, Venezuela, there's a lot of censorship going on. There's an informational blockage to the people and a lot of the communication has gone through all these informal channels like through social media, through WhatsApp, through communications and all that. And that's why you have the regime right now, like ranting against apps like WhatsApp, messaging apps and social media, because that's the way to spread the truth about what's going on and the best way to communicate. So the diaspora has played a large role on that and continues to, I.
[00:27:47] Speaker A: Mean, let's say China, no WhatsApp in China, no Facebook, no social media.
Do you think that the regime would be capable of shutting down WhatsApp or these other platforms?
[00:28:04] Speaker B: They're trying. So, like, he started doing, like the Maduro started doing this like, like campaign against WhatsApp and other apps, like against WhatsApp against X, formerly known as Twitter, Facebook and all that. And even ranting against the Elon Musk Jeff basis of Mark Zuckerberg's of the world. And like, without a doubt, it's something that they would prefer to do. Like, censorship is huge in Venezuela. Like if you don't have a VPN app, you can access news sites like not only CNN or the main us news sites, but also the main news sites in Latin America or venezuelan news sites like Infobai, El Pais.
And some of these are even like, they're diverse in terms of ideology and editorial preferences. So, yeah, so, like, the diaspora has plenty of way to share those news and keep the people informed.
[00:29:15] Speaker A: My modern Gaul on YouTube asks, we have seen the international response from the US, the UN. What about the response from Venezuela's immediate neighbors, those on its borders?
[00:29:29] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the main question right now. So you see that the democratic.
[00:29:36] Speaker A: They haven't committed.
[00:29:37] Speaker B: They haven't committed, but they keep asking the government for to release the electoral data. Like the three key countries, like the four key countries here are Brazil, Colombia, Mexico and Spain, which are governments that are led by left wing leaders. Right now they are governments that have been kind of complacent or completely complacent to the dictatorship in other ways. But there's this downturn that they're democratic countries and they have some checks and balances and imperfect democracies, but they have checks and balances as well, particularly in Brazil, Colombia and Spain. In Mexico, it's a little different right now, like you have that the president is very like unique and wants to do and his party just won landslide election and with the majorities in Congress. So there's one of the areas that needs work. But I like anybody who has power to advocate and look for the governments of Colombia and Brazil, which might be adverse right now in terms of ideology and all that. But at the end of the day, they're democratic to play a useful role of this negotiation and in this pressuring for a transition or for recognition of these results, like please do. And you have the diasporas in this country activating, advocating for the recognition of the results.
[00:31:23] Speaker A: Kingfisher 21 also on YouTube asks why has socialism been so popular in Venezuela despite the hardships people face? And I think we covered that a little bit earlier, but not this one. What justification does the regime give to Venezuela's current state? Blame it on sanctions. Now these crazy Maduro blaming this opposition on Jews and Zionism, I mean, it's insane. But what is their excuse? What is the regime's excuse?
[00:31:57] Speaker B: Well, once again, 70 30. 70 30 that was a result of these elections. Like Venezuela is not a polarized country. Venezuela is, is a country that wants democracy, is a country that wants to have its say on its future. It's a country that wants to work. It's a country that wants markets and being able to rise up from the crisis that it is in.
Socialism has not been popular in Venezuela for a long, long time. And you see that on the 8 million Venezuelans who have voted with their feet. And they have voted for their feet not only for free markets and countries that have free economies like the neighboring countries like Brazil, Colombia and the US, but also to democracies, like they have voted with their feet, like fleeing the authoritarian and looking to settle in democracies. And that's what makes migrants kind of like a big asset for democracy and free markets because, you know, these are people seeking for opportunity and to work and. Yeah, and that's the answer that I would say. 70 30.
The Maduro regime is not popular in Venezuela. Socialism is not popular in Venezuela and venezuelan people want change.
[00:33:23] Speaker A: You said 8 million. Put that into context. Was that like a third of the venezuelan population? What percentage has left? We had another question here.
[00:33:34] Speaker B: A quarter. A quarter. A quarter of the population. 25%. 8 million. And the population of Venezuela was like hovering around 33 million when this whole crisis started.
[00:33:49] Speaker A: All right, so lock, stock and barrel, there's your answer.
This is a very interesting question from Alan Turner on YouTube. What do Venezuelans feel with regards to what's been happening in Argentina with Malay? Is there more interest in libertarian and free market ideas?
[00:34:09] Speaker B: There is a very strong interest. Like, it's something that was very interesting from the millet is that he campaigned saying that there's no money. Money ran out. Money ran out and we want to earn our future and government get out of the way. Maria Corina Machado has been touring the country with a very similar message, saying that the venezuelan people wants to work, the venezuelan people wants to earn well, living good, good earned, like wealth and wants to produce wealth. And that has been, you know, met with a strong support, with applauses and she has really moved the fiber in the country and, you know, like standing with democratic, the democratic values and all that. And the venezuelan people want change and wants freedom and liberty. And you're seeing that in the message and it could be compared to what millet like campaign and promised to the venezuelan people, like to the argentinian, argentinian people and, you know, and in a very different way. Like we could, like, of course it talks about the direction that we want to go and all that, but there's some factions that you're not seeing in the leadership of Maracorina Machado, like, you know, like identity, like what some people are identical.
Like, you don't see in Madaga. Madagarina is like a liberty democracy.
And that message has, like moved the fiber in the venezuelan people.
[00:35:56] Speaker A: Okay, question from Big K on YouTube about the CIA.
Any window on CIA activity in Venezuela?
[00:36:12] Speaker B: No, we don't know the democratic forces and, you know, and, you know, democratic forces have been opting for the electoral route and for the results to be recognized and.
[00:36:26] Speaker A: Yeah, and like you say, 70 30, hard to argue with that. So, Candice, I'd say that there's your question.
She also wanted to know, will change inventives will come from external or internal forces. And I guess it's a little bit of a combination. Right? So, for example, those neighboring countries which have yet to take a stand, if the pressure is brought to bear from the diaspora and others, then I think that you'll see a combination of pressure from inside and the pressure from outside.
[00:37:01] Speaker B: Nobody has the magic ball like the magic, the crystal ball to know what's the going to happen and what will happen and what kind of like, but it has to be a combination. Like we have had international pressure a lot, like over the years, like increasing and a lot of like, support from the threshold. And there have been a little pressure, internal as well. For the first time ever, we have a 70 30 result, democratic result, that even in the most adverse of conditions, like the venezuelan people went to vote and voted massively.
So that's something that is different this time around.
And a lot of these events, they don't look that they're going to happen until they happen. People woke up on November 9, 1989 not having an idea that the Berlin Wall was going to fall that afternoon, that evening.
Anything could happen here. And, but also we have like, be mindful that these are very like, you know, like evil adversaries that you see that starting from the cuban government, that the regime, the dictatorship that has been there for over 60 years.
[00:38:30] Speaker A: Right?
[00:38:31] Speaker B: Like the, you see the North Korea, in North Korea, you see the case of Russia and all that. So, yeah, so it's very formidable, like the adversary.
And they're willing to go at any cost. They don't care about the human cost. And you see the human cost. And all the people who have died from the humanitarian emergency taking place in Venezuela, they don't care about the human cost of like all the families being fractured through the migration flows.
And their only goal is to maintain power no matter what. But that's why it has to be a combination of internal forces, external forces and, yeah, for the events to develop.
[00:39:23] Speaker A: To take a positive turn. So, you know, one thing that struck me recently, Democrat Congressman Jamie Raskin had this to say, quote, the democratic world must oppose Maduro's assault on the electoral process and free speech. The right wing attack on democratic institutions anywhere is a threat to freedom everywhere.
I guess I wasn't thinking of the socialist Maduro as right wing. But is this just a kind of take born of the polarization and the kind of talking points, of partisan talking points here in the US? Or is there a case to be made that Maduro is somehow right wing? Maybe his stance on social issues?
[00:40:16] Speaker B: Well, I'm not sure about that. Quote, it must be some kind of like a gaffe. Yeah, I know that. But like here is something critical that is very important to say with an us, with american audience. Like the venezuelan situation has been bipartisan, has gotten bipartisan support. And the democratic struggle for democracy in Venezuela has gotten support from both sides. Like I believe, like comments like that, like the case of Venezuela has been instrumentalized politically here to attack the other side, X or Y. But there are a lot of things that make it like, difference and which not enter into those, into those debates because it's very, it's very different. And I, and what we have to reject is the authoritarian take of power taking place in Venezuela and look for the most right strategies to combat that. And again, let's not bring the Venezuela situation to the US and the american political debate, like, not let it be used, instrumentalized. And I think we have to, like, all stand for democracy, all stand for a peaceful and democratic change in Venezuela. And that's what every democracy and freedom promoter around the world needs to stand for.
[00:42:05] Speaker A: Very good. Very good.
So we touched a little earlier on Maria Corinna Machinae, and you mentioned that, you know, among the very early violations was that she was prevented from running against Maduro. And just tell us a little bit about her. Who is she?
You know, what's her backstory?
And do you see her long term as a potential successor to Gonzalez who actually was at the top of that ticket?
[00:42:39] Speaker B: Well, like this whole process has been led by Marecorina Machado and there's no question about that. And it's somebody who has had a very constant and stable leadership for a long time. Like her political career started a little over 20 years ago when she leddehe a think tank following electoral issues called Sumate. And she led that, that organization that was able to organize the people to request some referendum in Venezuela. And after that she was a congresswoman. And then she was like illegally revoked from her congress congressional seat and illegally revoked from her, like, political rights to be elected and inhabilitated, how they call it in Venezuela, on her right to travel, to leave the country. So she hasn't left the country for over ten years since all these things happened. So like, her, her leadership and her political message has, it's something that you can compare to Winston Churchill, like their videos of ten years ago when even democratic, like democratic allies, like made fun of her positions, made for fun of her, of her, like her stance on a lot of things and time has validated that and the people has seen that and has supported that. And she won the primaries with over 90% when a lot of, like, yeah, like with a lot of situation and coming with not only a very democratic message, a very, you know, like strong message about respecting the people's will, but also a lot of like, liberty oriented message of the free markets, of the Venezuelans wanting to, you know, like, forge their will. So I think that leadership is going to look, it's going to last for a long time. We don't know what the process for the, if we come to, like, we start a transition, like, it's very hard to see how the red democratization of the country will take place. But if a free election is called at any time, like, the people will support, like her.
[00:45:22] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you know, what you were saying about how early on people were making fun of her. It reminds me of the old saying, first they ignore you, then they make fun of you and laugh at you. Then they fight you and then you win. So hopefully that will be the progression here.
So let's talk a little bit about the situation of political prisoners in Venezuela. Antonella Marti told me there's a huge mall that was built in the past century and never finished, but that the Maduro regime turned it into a massive prison for political prisoners. And what is that? And what is the situation about?
[00:46:07] Speaker B: That's a very, very important topic that I can't believe that we haven't gotten to. I'm sorry about that. But like, political persecution and repression has been a systemic tool used by the regime. Like, they have imprisoned, like before this election, electoral cycle started, they had over 300 political prisoners. And you saw like during the process of the, both the primaries and the campaign, they, they prosecuted and imprisoned a lot of, like, political activists, a lot of business people. There was a case, there were several cases of businesses that it was made public, that they welcomed and they served Marika Rina Machado or Edmundo Gonzalez or anybody. And after that, the authorities came to shut them down.
So you saw all of that. And after the elections, you have seen this new repression cycle taking place. As of this morning, there have been over 1200 people detained, like from, like, demonstrating or from simply traveling. They have been this systemic effort to annul passport to, like, to anybody who, like, could have democratic participation or who could be, you know, to install fear. And as of this morning, there have been 24 deaths coming from protest or anything related, like the movement that has taken place since the election took place.
So, yeah, so that's a systemic effort that the regime has undertaken that there should be a global alarm on what's going on and everybody be aware of this kind of like atrocities taking place.
[00:48:16] Speaker A: Guardiangamer on YouTube asks what humanitarian efforts are going on right now. Are humanitarian aid allowed to be sent. And is it getting to people or is it like in the situation in much of the rest of the world when you have a corrupt regime, it's actually just being siphoned off and taken advantage of by those in power.
[00:48:43] Speaker B: Yeah, well, Venezuela is living, it's going through a complex emergency, a complex humanitarian emergency, and that has activated a lot of numbers from the different institutions, from the United nations, from all the different groups that handle the situations.
And you have seen that the response has made it in a way to Venezuela. But given the nature of the, of the government and the different obstacles that there are, it's very hard to get there. But there are heroic organizations doing, you know, like work with their nails to try to get humanitarian support to like, different parts of the country and like, yeah, and it's something that we have to be aware as well about the humanitarian situation and, yeah, and that also talks about the need for change, the need for a different, for the respect of the people to be respected because the will of the people to be respected because that would make it more efficient to open different humanitarian corridors that this regime has not been willing to do and has used it as a blackmail.
[00:50:19] Speaker A: That's on Maduro's claim to the Essequibo region in Guyana's territory.
Any thoughts on whether he might make a move there as sort of a last ditch effort to hold on to power?
And how is that issue seen within Venezuela? Also within the aspira? Do Venezuelans actually agree with the annexation of that territory?
[00:50:51] Speaker B: Well, that's a dispute, that's a century old dispute. And you could go into the details about that and where Venezuela, the venezuelan traditional state, has an argument on that. But that has been instrumentalized by this regime and has been like, there's an argument that they have neglected this issue and they have only used it to distract from their political situation.
You know, like the democratic forces organized this massively successful primaries in October and they out of nowhere reemerge this issue and they did a referendum in December which was a complete failure, that it was completely failed. Nobody participated. Everybody saw that what it actually was a political distraction. Everybody feared. There were, there are a lot of people that spoke about a scenario where they were where the regime was going to do some military action and all that to halt and cancel or postpone the elections, but that didn't take place.
And yeah, they're capable of doing anything, but what people were expecting is for them to play that card ahead of the elections in order to suspend them or cancel them. But yeah, but that issue has been instrumentalized by the regime a lot.
[00:52:32] Speaker A: Question for you.
All right, so a quarter of the tax base has left. The economy has been cratered.
Where is the Maduro regime getting the money to pay the army, for example, to obviously enrich themselves and become billionaires when the economy has collapsed? What extent is it foreign aid from Russia or Iran or China? What extent is it drug cartel revenues? Where's the money coming from?
[00:53:17] Speaker B: The money's coming from, from the, from the, how do you call it? Like the underwater, the, like the underworld from elite, from the underworld from the illicit businesses. Like you see that, like there's a faction that lives from the illegal mining in the national parks and all that. So like gold and mineral mining that they do illegally in vast amounts of, of the territory. There's also a strong presence of drug activity in Venezuela. If you see like any kind of illicit activity, Venezuela is like in the middle of that. And something that, it's a reality as well is that when sanctions are imposed, like the collapse came before the sanctions, I know that. But there's, there's an illicit industry coming from the shadows and the regime has also like enriched from that. Like, you know, like right now, like they don't have to report any kind of like oil revenue and they're selling oil on, on illegal markets that nobody knows at what price and all that. And even, and that has something that has caused internal wars among themselves. Like if you follow this scandal last year when they present, they imprisoned this year, but the scandal erupted last year like somebody very entrenched from the chorismo very close ally to, like to Maduro and like other factions of the power coalition came asking where the profits were.
And then he was the one in control of the oil company and was the one responsible of selling oil on the black markets. And I was so like, where is the government getting the money is from illicit activities?
And you're seeing that even right now if you compare this electoral cycle to the cycle back in 2012, 2013, like government spending went up like crazy and they practically purchased souls for their support. And you don't see that right now practically because they're out of money and the wealth that they have, they're fractioning it among themselves.
[00:55:59] Speaker A: Well, that's a really important thing to keep in mind because, you know, it's always about money or it frequently is at the end of the day and at the end of the interview because we just have a couple of more minutes here. And so I know that you've wanted to keep the focus on Venezuela. And to the extent that we are looking at it through an american lens, being celebrating the fact that there's been a bipartisan outrage over this massive fraud and stealing of the election. But we have our own political elections coming up about 90 days away.
Your organization is about servicing the diaspora, the venezuelan diaspora, and a lot of that diaspora, or at least some of it is here in the United States.
In terms of the members you serve, is there any, do you have a sense of the pulse of where the venezuelan Americans are going to be? If they're Americans, if they're american citizens, they're going to be caring about many of the same issues that other voters are caring about. Things like the economy.
Any sense of where the diaspora within the United States, if it's divided as the rest of the country or have they given their experience with socialism and central planning and all of that, would they be more likely to support one candidate or one party over the other?
[00:57:50] Speaker B: We will.
I would say what's important is to keep the message that people like one democracy. And the root of the problem has been the erosion of democracy in Venezuela. And that has something that has been an issue that has had bipartisan support. Like, although there are like, small differences in how to approach it and how to change it, the us is not Venezuela. So it cannot be, like, seen from a venezuelan prison. And, yeah, like, if any of you ask, like, what venezuelan Americans are participating, like, american society is very polarized these days and everybody is looking to instrumentalize the venezuelan issue to attack the other side on their perspectives. So, yeah, so, like, I would warn about against that. Like, don't use the venezuelan, like, and especially don't use the venezuelan people. Don't use venezuelan migration or fleeing an authoritarian and repressive regime, like, as a way to attack, like, what's going on. And we could talk about us issues, like on a separate, like, interview. Interview. But I think, like, in the end of a way, like, you have to talk like, yeah, like that. Like, I would leave it at that. We have to, like, leave the venezuelan, strive for democracy, like, as a bipartisan issue, not instrumentalized venezuelan issues and venezuelan. And the venezuelan people and, yeah, like.
[00:59:38] Speaker A: Yeah, got it.
Thank you. Thanks. Well, this has been fantastic. This has been, I've learned so much and we had great audience questions. And as you say, it is a very complex situation.
We are living through history and let's hope that in this case, history continues its upward swing towards freedom. So thank you, Juan. Thanks, everyone for your great questions. Of course, if you enjoyed this video of any of our other materials, please consider making a tax deductible donation at atlas society.org donate and be sure to join us next week when Elaine Kmark, joining us here at the Atlas Society to discuss the growing political gender gap among young people, exploring what impact it will have on politics, relationships, and culture. See you next time.
